[noisy06]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
I was merely using the early Muslims to provide a justification for the view that "There's no such thing as Muslims believing that it is ok to overthrow the legal system". Anjem is an example of a Muslim who believes in overthrowing the current UK legal structure for an Islamic one but I don't think through war although I'm not sure what methods he advocates.

How is wanting Britain to become a Islamic state wrong as long as he doesn't advocate it through illegitimate means? You believe Sharia is the best rule of law, correct? Thus, it should benefit the British. Hence, what's wrong with advocating something for them that benefits them? Because it's non-Muslim majority? So was Spain wasn't it?

What I meant to say was the vast majority do not want to overthrow the legal system, only a very small number (none of which have a mosque might I add). You're using the wrong analogy though, you can't compare the actions of Umar or even the invasion of Spain to what Anjem and his group are trying to do. Spain was a forced Islamic takeover, it was offensive jihad to the core. In fact one of the most famous Muslim scholars of all time (you might know a lot about him) Ibn Hazm came from Spain and he was the strictest scholar on his interpretation of offensive jihad. He was the only scholar in Sunni Islam who stated that all the Qur'anic verses on peace or defensive jihad have been abrogated (it was and still is a unique position).

I just told you in my previous post why it's wrong to call for Britain to become and Islamic state, please read it, and if you have any questions then ask.

[Chumbaniya]

I feel like there are two quite separate threads to anti-Islamic sentiment that often get confused both in the minds of individuals and in political interpretations of the issue, which is damaging because one of them is pretty unpleasant and the other is actually quite fair. On the one hand, you've got uninformed, often racist fear and hatred of anyone who looks Arabic on the grounds that they are 'probably terrorists' or must be involved in things like honour killings that make tabloid headlines. This is unfair, ignorant and reinforces an idea of Muslims as an alien threat rather than a part of society. But on the other hand, you have criticism of some unpleasant aspects Islam as a religion which are very fair within Western society, because Islam - as it's commonly practiced - typically contains bigoted views on sexuality and the rights of women, amongst other things. Unlike mainstream Christianity, which has been considerably softened in its most common forms, Islam holds onto some incredibly outdated and dangerous views in the same way that fundamentalist Christianity does.

The problem with this situation is that the first type of anti-Islamic sentiment gets conflated with the second, and so intelligent, tolerant people who do not feel the first sentiment try to tiptoe around the second because they worry that they will be labelled racist or 'Islamophobic' (I'm not a fan of this word, to be honest) if they criticise Islam as a belief system (a very different thing to belittling or discriminating against Muslim individuals) for some very good reasons. I think it's fair to say that Islam won't have a comfortable relationship with the western world until it's more generally acceptable to criticise Islam in the same way that we are able to criticise Christianity.

[snozzle]

(Original post by B-Man.)
"It is important to show that Islam is not about to conquer Europe."

This is the most important aspect of his response. This has become the main talking point for all the major anti-Muslim movements throughout Europe. From the BNP in Britain, who are thankfully quite a marginalised party, to the National Front in France and the PVV in the Netherlands who unfortunately are not so marginalised. They all support their Islamophobic views and policies with threats of an Islamic take-over of Europe. Even in America just this week, Republican and former GOP Presidential candidate Michelle Bachmann was making ridiculous claims about how Muslims have taken over parts of the US government and are planning a complete take over.

Some of these groups also have very large followings which can be very problematic when lunatics like Breivik buy into the propaganda and decide to take militant action to 'defend' against the 'invasion.' In addition to that problem, it increases the day to day harrassment that has made Muslims & Asians the most frequent victims of hate crimes.

It's good to see the Swedish MP appears to understand the problem.

Can you name me a country which has a muslim majority through immigration or conquest but which doesn't have some sort of Islamic rule?

[Tackla]

My name is Khan and I am not a terrorist.

[de_monies]

Can I just say that I found it incredibly surprising for this to have came from Sweden. As much as I've criticised the UK, I do think that the UK is the most tolerant place in the whole of Europe. Here, groups like the EDL and the BNP don't have as near as much support as they do, just across the border

Sweden had elected a far right government AFAIK, and the French seem to be split right down the middle. I remember reading that Francois Hollande's victory was a very close one

It's not just anti Muslim sentiment either. Anti Jewish and Anti Eastern European sentiment is rising as well, from what I've read. I thought Europe learnt about what happened just under a century ago, but it seems not

From what I heard, it's a growing problem in Germany as well. The anti foreign, anti non Christian/Atheist sentiment, and I thought that the Germans should really know better. I still regard Germany as a great success, and one of the world's greatest democracies but anti foreign, anti non Christian/Atheist seems to be growing there as well

[de_monies]

(Original post by Steevee)
As it is, Islamaphobia is not a problem for the most part. I'm assuming you're referring to the sort of Islamaphobia I'm often accused of.

You mentioned earlier about not wanting to buy halal meat, in case the money ends up in the hands of an Islamic organisation. If I said "I don't want to buy this chicken in case it ends up in the hands of a Black man" I'd be racist. Similarly, you are indeed Islamaphobic

There's criticism of Islam, and then there's people like you who claim that there's no such thing. Notice how I've never once called Ayeshizzle or Politricks Islamaphobes despite being ex Muslims - mainly because they don't sensationalise things, or say silly things like that

(Original post by Steevee)
Those terrible hate crimes such as expecting people not to walk around with their face covered, that most evil of views that says faith schools should not be allowed to operate

Um, some women cover their faces and some don't. It's their choice. I see people wishing to ban all faith schools and that's fair enough because it's not targeting one particular religion yet I saw someone wishing to ban just Muslim faith schools. That is discriminatory. Similarly, if you just wished to ban Christian schools, that would be discriminatory

(Original post by Steevee)
that just plain awful criticsm and dislike of Halal. I know, clearly I am comparable to Hitler.

Ah before you used to go on about how halal meat is more barbaric etc.. and after we've proved you wrong time after time, your main objection now is that "I don't like meat which is blessed" Interestingly, I've never once noticed you say any thing about kosher meat. If you're going to dislike halal meat, you should at least be consistent

(Original post by Steevee)
Please. There is no more 'Islamaphobia' in the west than there is inherent sexism anymore.

Both these things exist. As much as society likes to get rid of the isms, the phobias etc... they will still exist

(Original post by Steevee)
What we have are some small instances of it, and then general and legitimate criticsm that gets lumped in with that label for the sake of a PC agenda.

Read my reply above. I implied how grateful I am to live in the UK, as opposed to say France, Germany or Sweden

(Original post by Steevee)
And frankly it's only mindless liberals and Muslims that believe in this 'Islamaphobia' myth.

Like the Anti Semitism myth? Like the sexism myth? Like the racism myth?

[B-Man.]

(Original post by snozzle)
Can you name me a country which has a muslim majority through immigration or conquest but which doesn't have some sort of Islamic rule?

Kazakhstan.

[Steevee]

(Original post by de_monies)
You mentioned earlier about not wanting to buy halal meat, in case the money ends up in the hands of an Islamic organisation. If I said "I don't want to buy this chicken in case it ends up in the hands of a Black man" I'd be racist. Similarly, you are indeed Islamaphobic

There's criticism of Islam, and then there's people like you who claim that there's no such thing. Notice how I've never once called Ayeshizzle or Politricks Islamaphobes despite being ex Muslims - mainly because they don't sensationalise things, or say silly things like that


Um, some women cover their faces and some don't. It's their choice. I see people wishing to ban all faith schools and that's fair enough because it's not targeting one particular religion yet I saw someone wishing to ban just Muslim faith schools. That is discriminatory. Similarly, if you just wished to ban Christian schools, that would be discriminatory


Ah before you used to go on about how halal meat is more barbaric etc.. and after we've proved you wrong time after time, your main objection now is that "I don't like meat which is blessed" Interestingly, I've never once noticed you say any thing about kosher meat. If you're going to dislike halal meat, you should at least be consistent


Both these things exist. As much as society likes to get rid of the isms, the phobias etc... they will still exist


Read my reply above. I implied how grateful I am to live in the UK, as opposed to say France, Germany or Sweden


Like the Anti Semitism myth? Like the sexism myth? Like the racism myth?

Islam is a choice, by being a Muslims you subscribe to a set of rules and ideals. That is not true of a Black man. You need to learn the difference between race a religion.

No, the face should not be covered in public. I wouldn't expect people to walk around in balaclavas, I don't expect women to walk around with their faces covered, and certainly not anywhere where it could pose a security risk.

You're not to smart are you. Studies say Halal meat which is not stunned is infact worse for the animal than traditional Western methods. Equally I have stated time and time again I have the same objection to Kosher meat, but the fact that Kosher meat is not being sold on the wide market with improper labelling renders it a moot point.

The implication of saying 'there is a problem with' or 'X society is ****phobic' is that it is a widespread and prevelant problem. Which is true of neither sexism nor 'Islamaphobia'.

You imply because of WWII we should be ceasly welcoming and accepting of everyone? How naive are you?

Anti-Semitism? It's certainly not a myth in Islamic countries, and sadly there are Muslims over here that what to bring that perversion to the UK. But in the UK at large? Anti-Semitism isn't a problem. The same is true with Sexism and Racism. There are some instances of them of course, but there is no 'problem' with them.

[snozzle]

(Original post by B-Man.)
Kazakhstan.

So we can say that truly secular states with a muslim majority are exceptions? The one you mentioned is only two decades old btw.

[Tahooper]

(Original post by ak137)
If you object to halal because its blessed in a God's name you dont believe in, IMO that is an okay criticism. If you object to halal because of "cruel slaughter" = become vegatarian. Simples.

What about the people who don't want to eat meat from animals which suffered more than the absolute minimum possible in the slaughter process?

[de_monies]

(Original post by Steevee)
Islam is a choice, by being a Muslims you subscribe to a set of rules and ideals. That is not true of a Black man. You need to learn the difference between race a religion.

Fine. If I were to say I don't want to buy this chicken because the money will go to a Catholic/Jewish organisation, I would still be discriminating against those people. Also, why exactly do you not wish for your money to go to an organisation run by Muslims?

That in itself is Islamaphobic

(Original post by Steevee)
No, the face should not be covered in public. I wouldn't expect people to walk around in balaclavas, I don't expect women to walk around with their faces covered, and certainly not anywhere where it could pose a security risk.

Most women don't even wear the niqab and those that wish to cover up tend to wear the hijab. It's not too different to what a nun would wear. Should we ban those as well?

Also, we are a society that has democracy at it's very heart, and democracy allows for freedom of religion and freedom from religion. If these women believe that they are acting out a religious duty, and you ban them, you are at direct odds with democracy

(Original post by Steevee)
You're not to smart are you.

Irony

(Original post by Steevee)
Studies say Halal meat which is not stunned is infact worse for the animal than traditional Western methods.

Most meat in the UK is stunned, and the traditional Western method was not really taking care of animal welfare at all, and slaughtering the animal in a way that wasn't on par with the method used in Muslim countries at the time. Machine slaughter was never ever about animal rights. It just made the meat a whole lot cheaper. The meat companies then used that as an excuse, to make even more profit

(Original post by Steevee)
Equally I have stated time and time again I have the same objection to Kosher meat

Well sorry if I've not noticed this from you

(Original post by Steevee)
but the fact that Kosher meat is not being sold on the wide market with improper labelling renders it a moot point.

So says the Daily fail. I've never known a Muslim to buy meat from a mainstream supermarket, and if the supermarkets were to sell halal or kosher meat, and not label it, how is that the fault of Muslims or Jews?

(Original post by Steevee)
The implication of saying 'there is a problem with' or 'X society is ****phobic' is that it is a widespread and prevelant problem. Which is true of neither sexism nor 'Islamaphobia'.

You imply because of WWII we should be ceasly welcoming and accepting of everyone? How naive are you?

I didn't say that it is widespread here. I mentioned how tolerant the UK actually is. I did however mention how it is widespread in other European nations

(Original post by Steevee)
Anti-Semitism? It's certainly not a myth in Islamic countries,

Anti Semitism exists all over the world. I'm not denying it. Also, it's interesting that anti Semitism in Muslim countries increased post Islamic golden age. During the golden age, the Muslim countries were the more tolerant ones. It's not a myth in Islamic countries and nor is it a myth in any other country, bar Israel

(Original post by Steevee)
and sadly there are Muslims over here that what to bring that perversion to the UK.

So you think it's just Muslims right? Look on stormfront, and see some White nationalists blaming every thing under the sun on Jews(and Muslims, and Black people and every one who doesn't happen to be the same as them)

(Original post by Steevee)
But in the UK at large? Anti-Semitism isn't a problem. The same is true with Sexism and Racism. There are some instances of them of course, but there is no 'problem' with them.

The thread is about Europe. Again, I'll say that the UK is pretty tolerant, but these issues are far worse once you get to what is actually Europe

[Steevee]

(Original post by de_monies)
Fine. If I were to say I don't want to buy this chicken because the money will go to a Catholic/Jewish organisation, I would still be discriminating against those people. Also, why exactly do you not wish for your money to go to an organisation run by Muslims?

That in itself is Islamaphobic


Most women don't even wear the niqab and those that wish to cover up tend to wear the hijab. It's not too different to what a nun would wear. Should we ban those as well?

Also, we are a society that has democracy at it's very heart, and democracy allows for freedom of religion and freedom from religion. If these women believe that they are acting out a religious duty, and you ban them, you are at direct odds with democracy



Irony


Most meat in the UK is stunned, and the traditional Western method was not really taking care of animal welfare at all, and slaughtering the animal in a way that wasn't on par with the method used in Muslim countries at the time. Machine slaughter was never ever about animal rights. It just made the meat a whole lot cheaper. The meat companies then used that as an excuse, to make even more profit



Well sorry if I've not noticed this from you


So says the Daily fail. I've never known a Muslim to buy meat from a mainstream supermarket, and if the supermarkets were to sell halal or kosher meat, and not label it, how is that the fault of Muslims or Jews?


I didn't say that it is widespread here. I mentioned how tolerant the UK actually is. I did however mention how it is widespread in other European nations


Anti Semitism exists all over the world. I'm not denying it. Also, it's interesting that anti Semitism in Muslim countries increased post Islamic golden age. During the golden age, the Muslim countries were the more tolerant ones. It's not a myth in Islamic countries and nor is it a myth in any other country, bar Israel


So you think it's just Muslims right? Look on stormfront, and see some White nationalists blaming every thing under the sun on Jews(and Muslims, and Black people and every one who doesn't happen to be the same as them)




The thread is about Europe. Again, I'll say that the UK is pretty tolerant, but these issues are far worse once you get to what is actually Europe

Let me ask you, would you want your money going to a Nazi organisation? I disagree with Islam, therefore I don't want to help promote Islamic organisations. Don't worry, I don't support the Church either.

Clearly the issue is the covering of the face, Nuns don't cover their faces. Stop trying to turn the issue into something it's not, the problem is the covering of the face.

When I say traditional, I mean the method used by Western society today.

It's not the fault of Muslims per se, of course these people want to make maximum profit. But as a consumer I have a right to know, and a lot of Halal meat is finding it's way into supermarkets and fast food resteraunts without being cleary labelled, which is a problem for me.

Your reply to my oringinal post stated that there were problems with X, Y and Z, the implication being that those problems are here in the UK, as that was what my post was talking about.

You mean when an Empire was at it's height it was more tolerant? Does that honestly surprise you? It's pretty much historical fact when it comes to ancient empires. Except to imply it's a problem in X country, it has to be a widespread and accepted viewpoint. Here it is not. In Islamic countries it is. And to an extent some Eastern European countries and former Soviet Bloc countries aswell.

No I don't think it's just Muslims, but they certainly are bringing that attitude with them. Just take a look at some of the Muslims on this forum, if the things I say are 'Islamaphobic' then they are certainly Anti-semites. The people on Stormfront are not accepted, if they air their views in a contempory setting, they will not be accepted.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Steevee)
It's not the fault of Muslims per se, of course these people want to make maximum profit. But as a consumer I have a right to know, and a lot of Halal meat is finding it's way into supermarkets and fast food resteraunts without being cleary labelled, which is a problem for me.

Why is that the concern of the supermarket? They shouldn't have to label something just because you don't like it. Who are far do we go? Do you label everything that has a connection to companies that use overseas laborers because some people don't like the idea of them thus don't want to fund them?

If there are plenty of people with your view then you could lobby but the supermarket is under no obligation to pander to your beliefs.

[snozzle]

(Original post by de_monies)
Anti Semitism exists all over the world. I'm not denying it. Also, it's interesting that anti Semitism in Muslim countries increased post Islamic golden age. During the golden age, the Muslim countries were the more tolerant ones. It's not a myth in Islamic countries and nor is it a myth in any other country, bar Israel

That might be true, but Islam always insisted in being tolerant on its terms, if it was absolutely tolerant it would never insist on having a monopoly on political power, then taking away the responsibilities of those minorities it 'protected', it would have left them to be autonomous in the first place.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Why is that the concern of the supermarket? They shouldn't have to label something just because you don't like it. Who are far do we go? Do you label everything that has a connection to companies that use overseas laborers because some people don't like the idea of them thus don't want to fund them?

If there are plenty of people with your view then you could lobby but the supermarket is under no obligation to pander to your beliefs.

Of course it's not the responsibility of the supermarket, it's the responsibility of the manufacturer. They are required to list their ingredients, location etc, would it be so difficult to just tag on that it is Halal on the end?

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Steevee)
Of course it's not the responsibility of the supermarket, it's the responsibility of the manufacturer. They are required to list their ingredients, location etc, would it be so difficult to just tag on that it is Halal on the end?

Yeah, costs more money and potentially lose more customers. They aren't required to write halal otherwise they would be facing legal repercussions yes? You merely want them to write halal. Just like some liberal college student wants to know if any "evil companies (i.e. opposing gay-marriage, supporting pro-life movements, sweat shops, supporting Israel etc etc)" are profiting of him buying products.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Yeah, costs more money and potentially lose more customers. They aren't required to write halal otherwise they would be facing legal repercussions yes? You merely want them to write halal. Just like some liberal college student wants to know if any "evil companies (i.e. opposing gay-marriage, supporting pro-life movements, sweat shops, supporting Israel etc etc)" are profiting of him buying products.

The cost to print a couple of extra words on the packet? Of course they aren't required yet, but I would move that they should be legally required to. Prove my point why don't you? They are already legally required to print their company name and location

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Steevee)
The cost to print a couple of extra words on the packet? Of course they aren't required yet, but I would move that they should be legally required to. Prove my point why don't you? They are already legally required to print their company name and location

Yeah, every peen counts.

I'm not talking about their company name, more connections to other companies that benefit e.g. or details like where their money goes. Why should we make a law that panders to your beliefs i.e. wanting only non-halal food and not the liberal college student that wants to know whether the company supports Israel or a company that has evil practices benefit from your company?

[Steevee]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Yeah, every peen counts.

I'm not talking about their company name, more connections to other companies that benefit e.g. or details like where their money goes. Why should we make a law that panders to your beliefs i.e. wanting only non-halal food and not the liberal college student that wants to know whether the company supports Israel or a company that has evil practices benefit from your company?

Because clearly slaughter method could be in the same sort of catagory as location, or whether it's penut free. Whereas of course, there is already a company name upon the packaging.

[LiterallyInsane]

(Original post by DynamicSyngery)
Indeed, absolute nicest thing we could do for the Jews is to import 100 million spittle-mouthed anti-semites.

If anyone is anti-semite or anti-foreign it is Europeans just read
through history. Who killed the+6million Jews and other minorities ? Europeans
quit blaming Muslims when we all know who prosecuted the Jews!
Also who knows in a couple of decades you guys will be prosecuting Muslims as an excuse to get rid of foreigners !