[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
This has been refuted countless times and is in no way a popular held view.

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"[T]hose who hold Al-Ghazali responsible for the age of decline will have to explain the production of tens of scientists, almost in every discipline, who continued to produce scientific texts that were in many ways superior to the texts that were produced before the time of Al-Ghazali. In the case of astronomy, one cannot even compare the sophistication of the post-Ghazali texts with the pre-Ghazali ones, for the former were in fact far superior both in theoretical mathematical sophistication, as was demonstrated by Khafri, as well as in blending observational astronomy with theoretical astronomy, as was exhibited by Ibn al-Shatir." - G. Saliba (2007). Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance, Cambridge: The MIT Press.

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I know Ghazali is regarded by some (in the secular sense) as one of the "greatest and influential" thinkers in history and all, but the "decline of science", is too much credit for a person.

Islamic Golden age's main decline came from the Mongol invasion, which destroyed Libraries/Educational places and burned all the books. And too a lesser degree, same with the Crusaders. Some Orientalist believe that the later adopted Taqleed (imitation) also played a part.


Ps. Anyone as a general interest wants to learn about Al Ghazali, then watch;

"Islamic Golden age's main decline came from the Mongol invasion, which destroyed Libraries/Educational places and burned all the books. And too a lesser degree, same with the Crusaders. Some Orientalist believe that the later adopted Taqleed (imitation) also played a part"

Perhaps the Mongols got the idea fomr the muslims themselves, who were famous for burning libraries/educational places and books and artifacts of pre-islamic science -

al-mansurs destruction of great libraries of greek and roman works, burning of the Library of Ctesiphon by Umar, Library of Rayy burned by Mahmud of Ghazni, Library of Nishapur and the University of Nalanda both destroyed by Turks , even modern day - ie Taleban burning of ancient books of the Pol-i-Khomri Library and their discovering of 2000 year old buddhist statues which they then duly blew up.

It can be noted that despite a 1.6 billion odd memebrship today, the comparative amount of signicifant contributions to science, economics and humanity from islamic society is noticeably tiny compared to other societies.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Perhaps the Mongols got the idea fomr the muslims themselves, who were famous for burning libraries/educational places and books and artifacts of pre-islamic science

al-mansurs destruction of great libraries of greek and roman works, burning of the Library of Ctesiphon by Umar, Library of Rayy burned by Mahmud of Ghazni, Library of Nishapur and the University of Nalanda both destroyed by Turks , even modern day - ie Taleban burning of ancient books of the Pol-i-Khomri Library and their discovering of 2000 year old buddhist statues which they then duly blew up.

All you did, like an ignorant person, is look at this list to base your rubbish on; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oyed_libraries

Umar(ra) isn't referenced.

A couple of libraries destroyed, most of them were to do with religion/art. Why, Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir burned down a few Ancient science books, I don't know, probably because they had no use in the current sciences. He also burned them toward the end of the rule in Spain, a tyrannical/oppressive time, also a time where the Christians were coming with a death wish for all women/children/men that are Muslim/Jew.

Point is, you gave very rare examples, most of which had no effect in secular learning advancements. It's like me saying the UK are cannibals because there's been one case of cannibalism in the past 100 years.

Otherwise, it's well known, as Islam encourages, the Muslims always consistently preserved knowledge, especially secular knowledge;

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The ruin of the empire of the Romans, and, along with it the subversion of all law and order, which happened a few centuries afterwards, produced the entire neglect of that study of the connecting principles of nature, to which leisure and security can alone give occasion. After the fall of those great conquerors and the civilizers of mankind, the empire of the Caliphs seems to have been the first state under which the world enjoyed that degree of tranquility which the cultivation of the sciences requires. It was under the protection of those generous and magnificent princes, that the ancient philosophy and astronomy of the Greeks were restored and established in the East; that tranquility, which their mild, just and religious government diffused over their vast empire, revived the curiosity of mankind, to inquire into the connecting principles of nature. [The Essays of Adam Smith, London, 1869, P. 353.]

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Whereas the Mongols/Crusaders were known for destroying books/libraries, as they saw them as "heretical as their enemies". The mongols destruction remains unmatched throughout history.

They literally left no book or manuscript.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
It can be noted that despite a 1.6 billion odd memebrship today, the comparative amount of signicifant contributions to science, economics and humanity from islamic society is noticeably tiny compared to other societies.

You truly are an embarrassment, in terms of your intellectual dishonesty.

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There is hardly a book on Islamic civilization, or on the general history of science, that does not at least pretend to recognize the importance of the Islamic scientific tradition and the role this tradition played in the development of human civilization in general. - George Saliba, Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance, Massachusetts, 2007, p. 1.

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It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would have never assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution. For although there is not a single aspect of human growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme course of its victory -- natural sciences and the scientific spirit. What we call sciences arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry; of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs. [Robert Briffault, Making of Humanity]

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You'd probably still be persecuted for saying the Earth is round.

[Dirac Delta Function]

(Original post by prog2djent)
Why hasn't the rest of the Islamic World developed in places such as Oman, a country hardly anyone knows about, I've been researching the country for the little while now, and what separates Oman from saudi arabia, N.African countries, Iraq, Jordan, Yemen etc etc is firstly the branch of Islam called Ibadism whereas the rest are Sunni, Iran/lebanon being Shia exceptions and the far east, Turkey and some central African nations have Sufi elements. They were among the first to open up trade areas with india and the west, they have a neutral foreign policy, are good relations with Iran and Israel, and they are a tourist hotspot (neighbours go to every year and say it is one).

Iraq and Bahrain are both majority Shia.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
All you did, like an ignorant person, is look at this list to base your rubbish on; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oyed_libraries

Umar(ra) isn't referenced.

A couple of libraries destroyed, most of them were to do with religion/art. Why, Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir burned down a few Ancient science books, I don't know, probably because they had no use in the current sciences. He also burned them toward the end of the rule in Spain, a tyrannical/oppressive time, also a time where the Christians were coming with a death wish for all women/children/men that are Muslim/Jew.

Point is, you gave very rare examples, most of which had no effect in secular learning advancements. It's like me saying the UK are cannibals because there's been one case of cannibalism in the past 100 years.

Otherwise, it's well known, as Islam encourages, the Muslims always consistently preserved knowledge, especially secular knowledge;

---

The ruin of the empire of the Romans, and, along with it the subversion of all law and order, which happened a few centuries afterwards, produced the entire neglect of that study of the connecting principles of nature, to which leisure and security can alone give occasion. After the fall of those great conquerors and the civilizers of mankind, the empire of the Caliphs seems to have been the first state under which the world enjoyed that degree of tranquility which the cultivation of the sciences requires. It was under the protection of those generous and magnificent princes, that the ancient philosophy and astronomy of the Greeks were restored and established in the East; that tranquility, which their mild, just and religious government diffused over their vast empire, revived the curiosity of mankind, to inquire into the connecting principles of nature. [The Essays of Adam Smith, London, 1869, P. 353.]

---

Whereas the Mongols/Crusaders were known for destroying books/libraries, as they saw them as "heretical as their enemies". The mongols destruction remains unmatched throughout history.

They literally left no book or manuscript.



You truly are an embarrassment, in terms of your intellectual dishonesty.

---

There is hardly a book on Islamic civilization, or on the general history of science, that does not at least pretend to recognize the importance of the Islamic scientific tradition and the role this tradition played in the development of human civilization in general. - George Saliba, Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance, Massachusetts, 2007, p. 1.

---

It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would have never assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution. For although there is not a single aspect of human growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme course of its victory -- natural sciences and the scientific spirit. What we call sciences arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry; of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs. [Robert Briffault, Making of Humanity]

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You'd probably still be persecuted for saying the Earth is round.

i didnt need wikipedia, i knew of all these and others - its well documented fact that various islamic empires did their best to destroy archives of sicentific, philisophical and artistic works of a thousand years prior, outof hysterical paranoia of muslims learning and developing their own ideas that would conflict with islamic rules and laws. Some persians as we know did copy works of the indian and greek scientists, but even some of these were destroyed by the ape-minded islamic caliphs that followed.

So your hypocritical critisim of the Mongols destroying islamic artifacts was amusing to me Effectvely they jsut did to the muslims what the muslims had done to the babylonians,hebrews and persians. You are also ignorant of the fact that the mongols embraced a huge amount of science, largely of the chinese, which helped them conquer the muslim world and were one of the most advanced military tacticians of their time - the Mughal, Timurid and Ottoman empires would not have eixsited if it werent for their pre-cursors, the Mongols

Your constant repeating of copy past articles of nobodies like saliba is getting overtly desperate too whenever this topic comes up, cant you find any other sources to qualify your claims? The consensus agreed is simply that islamic countires were credited by the europeans as being the conduit of various ancient european and asian sciences to the post middle ages europe - that that they didnt already destroy that is.

The evidence of modern advancemnt , which the islamic world has fallen to less than third world standard exemplifies this, where europe and the USA has picked up the baton of technological achievement, along with east asia, the islamic worlds biggest achievement is still some persian guy inventing the magnifying glass 400 years ago.

[Nick100]

You could ask the same of Christian countries. Why are the United Mexican States so much poorer than the United States of America?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
All you did, like an ignorant person, is look at this list to base your rubbish on; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...oyed_libraries

Umar(ra) isn't referenced.

A couple of libraries destroyed, most of them were to do with religion/art. Why, Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir burned down a few Ancient science books, I don't know, probably because they had no use in the current sciences. He also burned them toward the end of the rule in Spain, a tyrannical/oppressive time, also a time where the Christians were coming with a death wish for all women/children/men that are Muslim/Jew.

Point is, you gave very rare examples, most of which had no effect in secular learning advancements. It's like me saying the UK are cannibals because there's been one case of cannibalism in the past 100 years.

Otherwise, it's well known, as Islam encourages, the Muslims always consistently preserved knowledge, especially secular knowledge;

---

The ruin of the empire of the Romans, and, along with it the subversion of all law and order, which happened a few centuries afterwards, produced the entire neglect of that study of the connecting principles of nature, to which leisure and security can alone give occasion. After the fall of those great conquerors and the civilizers of mankind, the empire of the Caliphs seems to have been the first state under which the world enjoyed that degree of tranquility which the cultivation of the sciences requires. It was under the protection of those generous and magnificent princes, that the ancient philosophy and astronomy of the Greeks were restored and established in the East; that tranquility, which their mild, just and religious government diffused over their vast empire, revived the curiosity of mankind, to inquire into the connecting principles of nature. [The Essays of Adam Smith, London, 1869, P. 353.]

---

Whereas the Mongols/Crusaders were known for destroying books/libraries, as they saw them as "heretical as their enemies". The mongols destruction remains unmatched throughout history.

They literally left no book or manuscript.



You truly are an embarrassment, in terms of your intellectual dishonesty.

---

There is hardly a book on Islamic civilization, or on the general history of science, that does not at least pretend to recognize the importance of the Islamic scientific tradition and the role this tradition played in the development of human civilization in general. - George Saliba, Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance, Massachusetts, 2007, p. 1.

---

It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would have never assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution. For although there is not a single aspect of human growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme course of its victory -- natural sciences and the scientific spirit. What we call sciences arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry; of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs. [Robert Briffault, Making of Humanity]

---

You'd probably still be persecuted for saying the Earth is round.

And theres no point you as a muslim bitching about the mongols, yes they were better fighters than the muslims, which is why they conqurered the islamic empire, and piled up millions of skulls, but they also taught the muslims all the military tacitics and most importantly introduced muslims to gun poweder and then the gun, whcih was the basis for the mongols later generations, the mughals and timurids/ottomans, to establish their own empires.

[Truthman]

Unbelievers & Believers Achievements 135



Myth of Islamic Civilization Part 21



147A - Kamal Ata Turk & Islam



147B - Kamal Ata Turk & Islam

[ANIGAV]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
This has been refuted countless times and is in no way a popular held view.

---

"[T]hose who hold Al-Ghazali responsible for the age of decline will have to explain the production of tens of scientists, almost in every discipline, who continued to produce scientific texts that were in many ways superior to the texts that were produced before the time of Al-Ghazali. In the case of astronomy, one cannot even compare the sophistication of the post-Ghazali texts with the pre-Ghazali ones, for the former were in fact far superior both in theoretical mathematical sophistication, as was demonstrated by Khafri, as well as in blending observational astronomy with theoretical astronomy, as was exhibited by Ibn al-Shatir." - G. Saliba (2007). Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance, Cambridge: The MIT Press.

---

I know Ghazali is regarded by some (in the secular sense) as one of the "greatest and influential" thinkers in history and all, but the "decline of science", is too much credit for a person.

Islamic Golden age's main decline came from the Mongol invasion, which destroyed Libraries/Educational places and burned all the books. And too a lesser degree, same with the Crusaders. Some Orientalist believe that the later adopted Taqleed (imitation) also played a part.

On Wiki;

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There is little agreement on the precise causes of the decline, but in addition to invasion by the Mongols and crusaders and the destruction of libraries and madrasahs, it has also been suggested that political mismanagement and the stifling of ijtihad (independent reasoning) in the 12th century in favor of institutionalised taqleed (imitation) thinking played a part. Ahmad Y Hassan has rejected the thesis that lack of creative thinking was a cause, arguing that science was always kept separate from religious argument; he instead analyses the decline in terms of economic and political factors, drawing on the work of the 14th Century writer Ibn Khaldun.^[9]

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Ps. Anyone as a general interest wants to learn about Al Ghazali, then watch;

thanks for sharing this video.