'Accelerated' PGCE - Possible?

Hi everyone!

I'm looking into applying for either a secondary or post-compulsory PGCE next year, and by that time will already have a PTLLS qualification as I am starting the course next week. I was wondering if having the PTLLS beforehand would mean a reduced time frame for the PGCE course, and therefore perhaps reduced fees?

As far as I understand it, the PGCE incorporates the PTLLS, CTLLS (and DTLLS at Post-Compulsory) qualifications, so I'm wondering if I would to go over the PTLLS again, or could I skip it? Or, have I got it completely wrong and in fact PTLLS isn't even a part of the PGCE at all?

Any help would be greatly appreciated :smile:

Thanks!

Reply 1

Suzanathema

13

I may be wrong, but I have never heard of any provider offering a reduced PGCE. I have just completed mine and nobody at my institution, or any local institution that I met on placements, was able to reduce it based on previous experience. Sorry!

Reply 2

balloon_parade

14

Edge Hill do a 3 pathway PGCE (so I assume others do too) but it is mainly for people who have been working as unqualified teachers or cover supervisors for significant amount of time. (http://www.edgehill.ac.uk/postgraduate/flexiblepgce) If I were you I would ring up the ITT you hope to attend and see what they say, I wouldn't get your hopes up massively as it seems long term employment in the sector seems to be the key, but there is no harm in ringing up and finding out is there. :smile:

Reply 3

evantej

18

Original post by A.Li

[...] I'm looking into applying for either a secondary or post-compulsory PGCE next year, and by that time will already have a PTLLS qualification as I am starting the course next week. I was wondering if having the PTLLS beforehand would mean a reduced time frame for the PGCE course, and therefore perhaps reduced fees?

As far as I understand it, the PGCE incorporates the PTLLS, CTLLS (and DTLLS at Post-Compulsory) qualifications, so I'm wondering if I would to go over the PTLLS again, or could I skip it? Or, have I got it completely wrong and in fact PTLLS isn't even a part of the PGCE at all?

There are two types of PGCE. The secondary PGCE and the further education PGCE, also known as the PGCE PCET. Both these confer different teaching standards – QTS (secondary) and QTLS. To keep this simple ignore the secondary PGCE for the time being.

The PGCE PCET is made up of the PTLLS, CTLLS and DTLLS qualifications, which you study over one (or in some cases two) year(s). The PTLLS is the most basic teaching qualification you can do. Generally the further education sector use this where formal training is problematic, for example with vocational training or in prisons etc.. A bricks tutor will do the PTLLS while he is teaching to gain accreditation, and then perhaps go on to complete the other two components (unlikely). The reason it is the most basic is because it is taught at level three/four and all the teaching is done in the classroom (I think you only have to deliver 15 hours in total).

The cheapest way to gain QTLS would be to complete the CTLLS and DTLLS qualifications separately, rather than doing a full or part-time PGCE PCET programme. Because of changes the government made, if you are qualified to teach in FE then you are qualified to teach in secondary schools. But the problem for you is that in order to do the CTLLS and DTLLS qualifications you need contracted teaching hours, because you will be observed. Depending upon which subject you teach, this means you are potentially stuck between a rock and a hard place. You might not be qualified enough to gain a teaching post, but you cannot qualify until you get a teaching post (i.e. the hours). This is why lots of people, especially in more competitive subjects, opt to take the full time PGCE PCET, because the provider has the responsibility of finding your placements.

If you intend on doing a full time PGCE PCET then I would contact the relevant university for advice. My gut feeling is that even if you do have a PTTLS then cannot offer you a reduced time frame, because of the way funding works. At best they might informally say that you do not have to attend the first part of the course, but you would still have to pay the full fees. It might be worthwhile considering dropping out of the PTTLS if it is not going to help you in the short term, especially if you are self funding.

If you choose to go down the secondary route then your PTTLS will make no difference whatsoever. However, you would obviously be better prepared than any other student and have a firmer grasp of teaching ideas.

I would also consider putting in a speculative application this year. There are still quite a few providers offering spaces for my subject in secondary, which is competitive (English), so there might be spaces for you if you are lucky. There are always spaces in post compulsory, but they tend to over recruit to compensate for people dropping out before the course is full. Only one of the courses on GTTR is full but I know my university is full and has gone past the point of recruiting for the waiting list for full time spaces too. Give the university - the programme leader, not admissions - a quick ring before you submit an application.

I hope I have cleared things up for you. I am starting a part-time PGCE PCET in September so if you have any questions then feel free to ask away.

Reply 4

A.Li

OP

Original post by Suzanathema

I may be wrong, but I have never heard of any provider offering a reduced PGCE. I have just completed mine and nobody at my institution, or any local institution that I met on placements, was able to reduce it based on previous experience. Sorry!

Hey, yeah I thought that might be the case, but thought it might be worth looking into. Thanks for replying anyway! Do you know if anyone tried or looked into reducing it?

Original post by balloon_parade

Edge Hill do a 3 pathway PGCE (so I assume others do too) but it is mainly for people who have been working as unqualified teachers or cover supervisors for significant amount of time. (http://www.edgehill.ac.uk/postgraduate/flexiblepgce) If I were you I would ring up the ITT you hope to attend and see what they say, I wouldn't get your hopes up massively as it seems long term employment in the sector seems to be the key, but there is no harm in ringing up and finding out is there. :smile:

Thanks that's really helpful, I will def look into it and see whether or not the uni I want to go to does something like this. I haven't got years worth of experience but worth a shot!

Reply 5

A.Li

OP

Original post by evantej

There are two types of PGCE. The secondary PGCE and the further education PGCE, also known as the PGCE PCET. Both these confer different teaching standards – QTS (secondary) and QTLS. To keep this simple ignore the secondary PGCE for the time being.

The PGCE PCET is made up of the PTLLS, CTLLS and DTLLS qualifications, which you study over one (or in some cases two) year(s). The PTLLS is the most basic teaching qualification you can do. Generally the further education sector use this where formal training is problematic, for example with vocational training or in prisons etc.. A bricks tutor will do the PTLLS while he is teaching to gain accreditation, and then perhaps go on to complete the other two components (unlikely). The reason it is the most basic is because it is taught at level three/four and all the teaching is done in the classroom (I think you only have to deliver 15 hours in total).

The cheapest way to gain QTLS would be to complete the CTLLS and DTLLS qualifications separately, rather than doing a full or part-time PGCE PCET programme. Because of changes the government made, if you are qualified to teach in FE then you are qualified to teach in secondary schools. But the problem for you is that in order to do the CTLLS and DTLLS qualifications you need contracted teaching hours, because you will be observed. Depending upon which subject you teach, this means you are potentially stuck between a rock and a hard place. You might not be qualified enough to gain a teaching post, but you cannot qualify until you get a teaching post (i.e. the hours). This is why lots of people, especially in more competitive subjects, opt to take the full time PGCE PCET, because the provider has the responsibility of finding your placements.

If you intend on doing a full time PGCE PCET then I would contact the relevant university for advice. My gut feeling is that even if you do have a PTTLS then cannot offer you a reduced time frame, because of the way funding works. At best they might informally say that you do not have to attend the first part of the course, but you would still have to pay the full fees. It might be worthwhile considering dropping out of the PTTLS if it is not going to help you in the short term, especially if you are self funding.

If you choose to go down the secondary route then your PTTLS will make no difference whatsoever. However, you would obviously be better prepared than any other student and have a firmer grasp of teaching ideas.

I would also consider putting in a speculative application this year. There are still quite a few providers offering spaces for my subject in secondary, which is competitive (English), so there might be spaces for you if you are lucky. There are always spaces in post compulsory, but they tend to over recruit to compensate for people dropping out before the course is full. Only one of the courses on GTTR is full but I know my university is full and has gone past the point of recruiting for the waiting list for full time spaces too. Give the university - the programme leader, not admissions - a quick ring before you submit an application.

I hope I have cleared things up for you. I am starting a part-time PGCE PCET in September so if you have any questions then feel free to ask away.

Wow, thanks for all that helpful information! It certainly has cleared things up, although I do have a question. You say that doing a PGCE PCET, which gives QTLS, would qualify me to do both FE and secondary teaching, however I thought QTS was needed to work in secondary schools? I would probably want to work at a 6th form and do both secondary and FE teaching, which is why I ask. If not needed, do you think it is good idea for teachers to have both, in terms of job prospects and fluidity, and demonstrating commitment to teaching? If so, would there be any way of gaining QTS after doing the PCET PGCE?

Unless QTS really is not needed, or I can get it somehow after doing the PCET, I'm starting to think it would probably be better and more practical to do a full time secondary PGCE to gain QTS, and then work towards the CTLLS and DTLLS separately for QTLS once I am in a placement/ job. Could you (or anyone) give any advice on the differences between CTLLS/DTLLS courses if there are any, and if there are, the better ones to take? I'm finding that there are different accrediting bodies (city and guilds and edexcel being the two I'm coming across). If I could get any information at that I would be very grateful!

In regards to the PTLLS course I am doing, I am taking a different teaching course and the PTLLS is provided for free alongside, so I will still take it up - why say no to free stuff right? - and I'm guessing it would probably help me onto a PGCE course too (?) regardless of which I decide to take.

I'm still studying at UG so I don't think I can submit my application this year. I will call the uni and ask them what their position would be on shortening the PCET PGCE (although I suspect your probably right about the funding situation) but since I am now leaning more towards a secondary PGCE, it probably won't make much difference!

Sorry, that was much more than one question! Thanks again for your help and again to everyone for replying. Of course responses are still welcome from anyone that has something to say on this, perhaps someone has looked into doing something like this, or knows someone who has?

Thanks! :-)

Reply 6

evantej

18

Original post by A.Li

Wow, thanks for all that helpful information! It certainly has cleared things up, although I do have a question. You say that doing a PGCE PCET, which gives QTLS, would qualify me to do both FE and secondary teaching, however I thought QTS was needed to work in secondary schools? I would probably want to work at a 6th form and do both secondary and FE teaching, which is why I ask. If not needed, do you think it is good idea for teachers to have both, in terms of job prospects and fluidity, and demonstrating commitment to teaching? If so, would there be any way of gaining QTS after doing the PCET PGCE?

Unless QTS really is not needed, or I can get it somehow after doing the PCET, I'm starting to think it would probably be better and more practical to do a full time secondary PGCE to gain QTS, and then work towards the CTLLS and DTLLS separately for QTLS once I am in a placement/ job. Could you (or anyone) give any advice on the differences between CTLLS/DTLLS courses if there are any, and if there are, the better ones to take? I'm finding that there are different accrediting bodies (city and guilds and edexcel being the two I'm coming across). If I could get any information at that I would be very grateful!

In regards to the PTLLS course I am doing, I am taking a different teaching course and the PTLLS is provided for free alongside, so I will still take it up - why say no to free stuff right? - and I'm guessing it would probably help me onto a PGCE course too (?) regardless of which I decide to take. […]

Under the old system, teachers in secondary schools and in further education were segregated. They had different teaching qualifications and different teaching standards. The government recently changed this system to make everyone equal. If you are a qualified teacher then it should not matter whether you specialised in secondary or further education. This means if you decided to train as a post-compulsory teacher, and gained QTLS as a result, you could now also teach in secondary schools. I do not think you would even need to 'gain' QTS either (i.e. they would not treat you as unqualified). The same applies to the secondary teacher who wants to work in a college.

In your case, if you feel you are going to train as a secondary teacher then you do not need to 'work towards the CTLLS and DTLLS separately for QTLS'. You would have QTS and that is all that is needed.

I do not believe having both qualifications would make you look more professional. And once you have done one teaching course, you will probably lose all desire to do another! However, QTS and QTLS are teaching standards which can be achieved without necessarily having the 'right' qualifications. It just so happens that most new teachers go this way.

The obvious example of someone who does not is a foreign teacher who learned under a different system. They gain QTS etc. by having their previous experience accredited (i.e. through observation). It is a vocational skill – essentially – and this is just standard practice.

To give you another example. I have just finished working in a prison where I was involved with education. Quite often, a prisoner would have excellent vocational skills, say in bricklaying, but because they trained so long ago or received no formal training at all they do not have the appropriate qualifications which building contractors expect them to have these days. Instead of making the prisoner start from scratch, which would be counter productive for lots of reasons, the tutor simply accredits their previous 'learning' within the new framework (e.g. a level two NVQ in bricklaying). Instead of doing a full course which could last a year, they might only have to brush up on recent health and safety units, for instance. The same applies for teaching.

If the PTLLS course is free then do it. It is a good course and will stand you in good stead if you do a PGCE. In terms of examination bodies, it will make next to no difference, and you will probably not have any choice anyway, but City and Guilds is the one that almost all the tutors I know have gone through.

Reply 7

A.Li

OP

Hi evantej, I just realised I didn't reply to your response here and although it's a bit late I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to respond; your post was really helpful! :-)

Reply 8

sally53

Hi everyone, I am a teacher trainee who studies towards PGCE(PCET). At the moment I am working in school academy, with sixth form learners. I just want to know after I finish the PGCE shall I apply for QTLS and submit works for a it or the thing I done in PGCE would be enough to award the QTLS?

Reply 9

swarfliam

11

Original post by sally53

Hi everyone, I am a teacher trainee who studies towards PGCE(PCET). At the moment I am working in school academy, with sixth form learners. I just want to know after I finish the PGCE shall I apply for QTLS and submit works for a it or the thing I done in PGCE would be enough to award the QTLS?

Can you possibly reword your question?

Reply 10

scots

2

Original post by A.Li

Wow, thanks for all that helpful information! It certainly has cleared things up, although I do have a question. You say that doing a PGCE PCET, which gives QTLS, would qualify me to do both FE and secondary teaching, however I thought QTS was needed to work in secondary schools? I would probably want to work at a 6th form and do both secondary and FE teaching, which is why I ask. If not needed, do you think it is good idea for teachers to have both, in terms of job prospects and fluidity, and demonstrating commitment to teaching? If so, would there be any way of gaining QTS after doing the PCET PGCE?

Unless QTS really is not needed, or I can get it somehow after doing the PCET, I'm starting to think it would probably be better and more practical to do a full time secondary PGCE to gain QTS, and then work towards the CTLLS and DTLLS separately for QTLS once I am in a placement/ job. Could you (or anyone) give any advice on the differences between CTLLS/DTLLS courses if there are any, and if there are, the better ones to take? I'm finding that there are different accrediting bodies (city and guilds and edexcel being the two I'm coming across). If I could get any information at that I would be very grateful!

In regards to the PTLLS course I am doing, I am taking a different teaching course and the PTLLS is provided for free alongside, so I will still take it up - why say no to free stuff right? - and I'm guessing it would probably help me onto a PGCE course too (?) regardless of which I decide to take.

I'm still studying at UG so I don't think I can submit my application this year. I will call the uni and ask them what their position would be on shortening the PCET PGCE (although I suspect your probably right about the funding situation) but since I am now leaning more towards a secondary PGCE, it probably won't make much difference!

Sorry, that was much more than one question! Thanks again for your help and again to everyone for replying. Of course responses are still welcome from anyone that has something to say on this, perhaps someone has looked into doing something like this, or knows someone who has?

Thanks! :-)

Hi, PTlls 3 &4 are the perliminary teaching qualifications. I did 3 and topped up with 4, even though I had a previous 2 year university diploma, then I proceeded to do my PGCE/DTLLS. The pgce and dtlls are exactly the same apart for one or two of the final assignments which are 500 words more....Ridiculous really. I took it fulltime PGCE/DTLLS alongside a level 5 ADTLLS fulltime which is teaching literacy and English again alongside a teaching placement of 150 hours. Worked well had altogether 12 observations... Finally just completed a Masters' degree in Education and am looking to be working in a secondary school, not FE. I don't believe it is necessary anymore to have a QTS or .. LS believe me I am fully qualified with a few other teaching options behind me also. I didn't bother with the CTLLS wasn't necessary. It all depends if you have a previous degree to whether they call it pgce or dtlls, although now it's called something else. So in my belief and experience it is not necessary to have the QTS as long as you are a qualified teacher. I am looking into a PHD whilst I work in a secondary school.

'Accelerated' PGCE - Possible?

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