[cl_steele]

(Original post by lilyrawstorne)
I feel a little ignorant on this topic I have to say but my gut reaction to army propaganda is one of disgust.

I accept that Help the Heroes aims to rehabilitate the wounded / families of the dead and that's not a bad thing. But why are soldiers better than those injured in manual labour for example?

I know that much of the army intends to protect but I struggle to see it any 'nobler' than a force for organised murder.

Please correct me/ explain why I'm wrong rather than negging me, I fully admit I don't know much about the army.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

Because they have, at least notionally, died defending their country not building a piece of what ever ...
although i am curious would you apply the same view to someone who died building fighter planes, bombers, ships etc. etc. as that would be manual labour?

[lilyrawstorne]

(Original post by Yung Mon£y)
They used conscription because of the numbers of people dying...
What is your point? If the government wants you to fight, they have ways of making you do it.

What on earth is wrong with defending your country? You do realise there are bad people out there who can't be reasoned with?

(Original post by Yung Mon£y)
They used conscription because of the numbers of people dying...
What is your point? If the government wants you to fight, they have ways of making you do it.

What on earth is wrong with defending your country? You do realise there are bad people out there who can't be reasoned with?

This argument is circular; those 'bad people' are only enabled to be destructive because of army structures.

I know there's no way round having an army, I just think conscription is disgusting and fascist and that the government pollutes underprivileged and/or poorly educated children into thinking the army is some kind of Mecca.

There's the whole subliminally encouraging racism thing too but I can't be bothered to argue it



This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[Yung Mon£y]

(Original post by lilyrawstorne)
This argument is circular; those 'bad people' are only enabled to be destructive because of army structures.

I know there's no way round having an army, I just think conscription is disgusting and fascist and that the government pollutes underprivileged and/or poorly educated children into thinking the army is some kind of Mecca.

There's the whole subliminally encouraging racism thing too but I can't be bothered to argue it



This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

You need to open your eyes and realise that some people want you dead. Let's take a look at Iran where the majority of the country sees the West as the enemy. It's not a case of the government cracking the whip to make people do it, but joe average is happy to help in your downfall.
As long as weapons exist, you need an army for defence.

Well what are you going to do with the poorly educated? Manual labour is all but gone leaving only the military for them. Plus you are ignoring all the positive things an army can be used for such as peace keeping during civil wars and provide disaster relief.

Sorry to say that you seem like you have good intentions but just come across as incredibly naive.

[Old Father Time]

Armies just follow up on a natural human instinct of aggression and domination on a larger scale. It would be impossible to disband every military institute in the world and therefore anyone who does becomes vulnerable to attack. Most armies in place are there for the purpose of defense these days.

[MxSK]

(Original post by Yung Mon£y)
Let's take a look at Iran where the majority of the country sees the West as the enemy.

What? Iran is one of the few countries in the region where that is NOT true...

[Yung Mon£y]

(Original post by MxSK)
What? Iran is one of the few countries in the region where that is NOT true...

How do the Iranians feel about Israel?

[MxSK]

(Original post by Yung Mon£y)
How do the Iranians feel about Israel?

To be honest, israel doesn't factor much in peoples lives. There are no historical grievances between iran and israel, there are no borders to have disputes over etc... israel has nothing to do with us... but if you push someone to give their opinion on israel/palestine, you will get a wide variety of responses. Many may show sympathy to the palestinians but there are also many who are pro-israel. But for both views, its from a "well its got nothing to do with me, but i believe X" perspective. But if you look at national interests, there is no reason for there to be any conflict between iran and israel, no rational one anyway.

People are more worried about the government throwing all our money away to hamas and hezbollah when we have so many problems at home... because thats something that actually affects peoples lives. What israel does for the most part doesn't.

One of the most popular chants in the 2009 election protests was "No Gaza, No Lebanon, I give my life only for Iran". It has a poetic ring to it in persian. People also hijacked the government sponsored "death to america" rally, and overpowered it with chants of "death to russia". The poor mullah on the speakerphone was drowned out.

EDIT:
Here's one of those protests: you can hear someone on a speakerphone say "marg bar israeel" then you hear the crowd chant back, "marg bar roosi-eh" (death to russia).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JKDAAQPnJg
Russia because they're seen as supporting the regime.
Another one: small group pathetically chant "death to america/israel", then you get a huge "death to russia" response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81eaE...eature=related

and heres one of the "no gaza, no lebanon, only iran" protests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDD-UhSPsvU

another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iW_g...feature=relmfu (they suddenly burst into the chant around 20seconds in) but you can see how large a crowd this was.

and another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyXugHhHZws

[NuclearFusion]

It's of one of those things, where unfortunately, we live in a world where it is necessary to have an Army. It would be great if there were never any conflicts- and so an Army would be unnecessary for the most part- but that sadly isn't true.

[Drewski]

If you think of them as an insuarance policy... You don't want to have to use them, but it's there if you need to or are forced into it.

Like any large group run at a distance by people with no real connection to it, it's capable of good and bad. It's members are not superhuman, they are not incapable of human emotions and human error. Sometimes they'll get things wrong.

As a previous member of the Armed Forces [not Army] I see things done and feel ashamed. I see other things done and they make me proud to have been a part of it. And twas ever thus, really.

[StarsAreFixed]

Coming from a country with a peacekeeping force rather than a proper army, I find it a bit odd to think of thousands of soldiers in reserve and a full navy etc. I don't neccessarily agree or disagree but I think the UK strike the right balance. The huge emphasis and money the US spend on it is frightening.

However I wouldn't agree that taking it away means the country will be invaded. Invasion isn't a risk, terrorism is, and if terrorists can get around security protocols etc. the army can't do anything, only in the aftermath can they help. Ireland's army is peacekeeping and has served in places like the Lebanon for decades. It does not have the manpower or arsenal to stop any kind of invasion, yet here we are not being invaded.

[Yung Mon£y]

(Original post by MxSK)
To be honest, israel doesn't factor much in peoples lives. There are no historical grievances between iran and israel, there are no borders to have disputes over etc... israel has nothing to do with us... but if you push someone to give their opinion on israel/palestine, you will get a wide variety of responses. Many may show sympathy to the palestinians but there are also many who are pro-israel. But for both views, its from a "well its got nothing to do with me, but i believe X" perspective. But if you look at national interests, there is no reason for there to be any conflict between iran and israel, no rational one anyway.

People are more worried about the government throwing all our money away to hamas and hezbollah when we have so many problems at home... because thats something that actually affects peoples lives. What israel does for the most part doesn't.

One of the most popular chants in the 2009 election protests was "No Gaza, No Lebanon, I give my life only for Iran". It has a poetic ring to it in persian. People also hijacked the government sponsored "death to america" rally, and overpowered it with chants of "death to russia". The poor mullah on the speakerphone was drowned out.

EDIT:
Here's one of those protests: you can hear someone on a speakerphone say "marg bar israeel" then you hear the crowd chant back, "marg bar roosi-eh" (death to russia).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JKDAAQPnJg
Russia because they're seen as supporting the regime.
Another one: small group pathetically chant "death to america/israel", then you get a huge "death to russia" response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81eaE...eature=related

and heres one of the "no gaza, no lebanon, only iran" protests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDD-UhSPsvU

another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iW_g...feature=relmfu (they suddenly burst into the chant around 20seconds in) but you can see how large a crowd this was.

and another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyXugHhHZws

Very curious.
In the UK the Iranians are portrayed as flag burning socio-paths who hate the west. Would you say that is just the media confusing the governments message and that the people really don't care about the West?
Also what is the effect the grand ayatollah has? He hates the UK but do folk write him off as senile?

[Drewski]

(Original post by Yung Mon£y)
Very curious.
In the UK the Iranians are portrayed as flag burning socio-paths who hate the west. Would you say that is just the media confusing the governments message and that the people really don't care about the West?
Also what is the effect the grand ayatollah has? He hates the UK but do folk write him off as senile?

No they aren't, don't talk rubbish. If you're only looking for one side of the story, you'll see that, but if you look at the news like a rational human being you'll see there are two sides and putting any people into a single group is idiotic. While there are some in Iran who enforce rules most of us here think irrational and insane, those people are there because there are people who don't follow those rules and share a mindset with us.

If you truly think the entire UK media shows one country's inhabitants as a single type, you need to open your eyes.

[Yung Mon£y]

(Original post by Drewski)
No they aren't, don't talk rubbish. If you're only looking for one side of the story, you'll see that, but if you look at the news like a rational human being you'll see there are two sides and putting any people into a single group is idiotic. While there are some in Iran who enforce rules most of us here think irrational and insane, those people are there because there are people who don't follow those rules and share a mindset with us.

If you truly think the entire UK media shows one country's inhabitants as a single type, you need to open your eyes.

Neg rep rant I see. At least read what I said in the future yeah?
I said THE NEWS PORTRAYS, not that they are. And yes, the news does portray them as that as it only shows the hate speeches by the gov/ayatollah and then the viewing crowds cheering. Dont be so blind bruv and watch the news
Im not the one putting anyone in a group, thats what the news is doing and thats what the question was about.

You have just gone wah no the media doesnt do that without giving a single bit of proof. Come back with something next time lad

[Empire08]

(Original post by lilyrawstorne)
But why are soldiers better than those injured in manual labour for example?

I refuse to believe that is a serious question.

The mind boggles...

[Drewski]

(Original post by Yung Mon£y)
Neg rep rant I see. At least read what I said in the future yeah?
I said THE NEWS PORTRAYS, not that they are. And yes, the news does portray them as that as it only shows the hate speeches by the gov/ayatollah and then the viewing crowds cheering. Dont be so blind bruv and watch the news
Im not the one putting anyone in a group, thats what the news is doing and thats what the question was about.

You have just gone wah no the media doesnt do that without giving a single bit of proof. Come back with something next time lad

When you're watching the 'news' showing the religious police attacking people, you're the blind one only seeing half the story.
We in the UK have a number of different news agencies each with a different bias. To suggest they all show the same viewpoint is wrong.

[Yung Mon£y]

(Original post by Drewski)
When you're watching the 'news' showing the religious police attacking people, you're the blind one only seeing half the story.
We in the UK have a number of different news agencies each with a different bias. To suggest they all show the same viewpoint is wrong.

How is it wrong. Bro you are just hollering without proof. Dont be lame
If you watch BBC and most newspapers they show the same picture so what exactly is it that you are watching or reading huh? Back your **** up bro and dont act like im in the wrong for watching the main news channels and just saying what I see

[jumpingjesusholycow]

(Original post by Converse Rocker)
Well, we entered the likes of Iraq to overthrow what was a very oppressive regime, with one tyrannical leader running the entire country and no democracy. Or to help citizens from terrorist groups that may be in control of certain cities/areas. Some may say there are other motives but I won't go into that.

Er, this is absolute nonsense.

We invaded (to use the correct terminology), because we 'believed' they had weapons that never existed.

[CyclopsRock]

Why are people with Cancer any more in need of help than those with other often-terminal illnesses? People usually give (and raise for) to charities that personally affect them. As for the army in general, well... yeah, we need it. I don't know why so many people assume that the freedoms we have, we'll never need to fight for. History is a constant timeline of one group of people fighting for freedom from another. Often they are in the same country and different classes, and sometimes it's a foreign nation oppressing or being oppressed by another. The world has not finished turning on its axis yet, and the freedoms we're all fortunate enough to take for granted cannot be maintained by will alone. Further to that, here's Jessop's quote from A Few Good Men shortly after the famous "You can't handle the truth" line, which I think sums it up quite well. (As a hint of context, Jessop is a Colonel in charge of a military base called to a court to explain the death of one of his Marines, Santiago).

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

[Alpharius]

And here come the pseudo-intellectual liberals...

The fact of the matter is we do not live in a utopia. For as long as we do not live in a utopia, we need to be able to defend ourselves. That is what the army does.

When we live in a utopia, we still might need to be able to defend ourselves. Independence Day, anyone?

Threads like these show how people in Britain today have been living in bubble-wrapping. Freedom hasn't always been automatic, and there will be challenges to our freedom in the future. The army protects it.

[Yung Mon£y]

(Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
Er, this is absolute nonsense.

We invaded (to use the correct terminology), because we 'believed' they had weapons that never existed.

Wrong. They did exist. However due to the **** storm the western media had kicked up, no one wanted to go 180 on their stance:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081300530.html