[Snagprophet]

I find it funny how it's acceptable to say Asians have higher IQs than Europeans but Africans having a lower IQ than Europeans or any white people in general is unacceptable.

[ArthurWinterthurII]

(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
I don't think you have really understood the OP.

He isn't suggesting doing any of those things.

He is asking what people that believe the statement 'blacks have an IQ lower than whites' is true would want to do.

+1 Oh, thankyou so much ALS - at least you quickly grasped it.

(Original post by Maker)
I think you are talking utter BS.

Why would you want to stop educating black people because they on the whole have a lower IQ than whites. By the same reasoning, why educate white people when it has been shown that orientals have a higher IQ than whites.

The not interviewing for top jobs is plain stupid. When one advertises for any job, you put in the qualifications and experience the candidates need to have. If the candidates have these you then short list them for interview. You don't interview random people off the street which is what you are implying.

Its ironic that you are posting a question about intelligence and anyone reading your post would conclude yours must be quite low.

Clearly, you have missed the pervading sarcasm in the post. I used extreme examples to try to elicit what is wanted by the eagerness of such studies and their results. I personally don't actually believe any of the nonsense examples that I have posted.

[RobertWhite]

(Original post by Gibbers)
>Implying that someones 'IQ' is a good indicator of their intelligence.

No one gives two ****s about these experiments and their results, except people who want to use it as some sort of fuel and ammunition while spouting racial hatred. Rather, the people who do the experiments just want to find out more about their specific field and scientific interest. That's the only reason why people research these kind of things, to build upon their own foundation of knowledge and break through the current frontiers of science. Thinking that those conducting the experiments are seeking to prove something is completely off-the-mark, they are simply approaching something that is scientifically relevant... race, genes and intelligence.

Still though, as I said, this is all assuming that someones IQ is a reliable, accurate and precise indicator of intelligence. (It's not.)

Some people learn in more practical ways when the current education system supports those who do not and so even if someone is intelligent they may slowly be 'phased' out of the system. However, IQ tests may not measure abilities such as emotional intelligence or your ability to kick a football but they certainly measure ones general intelligence and inherent abilities. There is no argument about that.

[Aspiringlawstudent]

(Original post by RobertWhite)
So basically, let evolution take its course instead of preventing it

Not sure how much I agree with that. I assume most families would support their weaker members anyway. I certainly wouldn't be alive right now if the weak were allowed to die. I would have died at birth without the specialist care I received.

I think the problem with this is the idea that it is the responsibility of the state to provide things like that, rather than individual enterprise.

It was not the instrument of the state that helped you at all, but surely rather the people that provided the care that helped you?

Those people would not disappear in a free market - they would certainly still be there if there was any value in what they did. Basically, if people want there to be healthcare professionals, there will be healthcare professionals.

That's how the market functions.

[RobertWhite]

(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
I think the problem with this is the idea that it is the responsibility of the state to provide things like that, rather than individual enterprise.

It was not the instrument of the state that helped you at all, but surely rather the people that provided the care that helped you?

Those people would not disappear in a free market - they would certainly still be there if there was any value in what they did. Basically, if people want there to be healthcare professionals, there will be healthcare professionals.

That's how the market functions.

Surely much wouldn't change then? We will always have those that care for the weak. What do you think would change? Those with lower IQ's generally fill many lower job roles and so would still thrive in this free market.

EDIT: Society was originally a 'free market' and so surely the government was put in place by choice rather than force?

[Maths_Lover]

(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
Have you ever taken an IQ test, I wonder?

Are you aware there are a great many IQ tests, a number of which are specifically designed to eliminate cultural bias?

Yes, I have, actually - no need to be rude.

Did these studies use those IQ tests, then? Also, how are they designed to do so (genuine question, not sarcastic comment - I honestly want to know)?

[Aspiringlawstudent]

(Original post by Kindred.Spirit)
As soon as I read OP's post - this came to mind:

http://thewillnigeria.com/world/3823...e-Britain.html

I'm not sure how pointing to any individual person does anything to counteract a claim about a difference in a group average. Nobody would take seriously the claim that 'black people have a lower IQ than white people on average' if one juxtaposed a black man with mental retardation and Bill Gates.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve or illustrate with your post, to be honest.

That there are exceptional individuals across all racial lines says nothing about what the OP is asking us to suppose; that black people, as a group, have a lower average IQ than white people, as a group.

[Evangelica]

(Original post by vedderfan94)
It's been scientifically proven. Blacks DO have a lower average IQ. Some people seem to think this is racism, but it's just fact.

Personally I believe the offence comes from suggesting it's a genetic rather than environmental thing. Of course if you or I were born in one of Africa's poorest villages our IQ would be lower. This is of course because how many books Sally is left with after Flynn and John is not important to know in such circumstances, what's more important is agricultural knowledge etc. For the record, although I don't know many black people admittedly, the few I do know all have genius IQ levels (over 140) and were born and raised here. I think that says something about the effect of environment.

[Aspiringlawstudent]

(Original post by Maths_Lover)
Yes, I have, actually - no need to be rude.

Did these studies use those IQ tests, then? Also, how are they designed to do so (genuine question, not sarcastic comment - I honestly want to know)?

When one typically thinks about cultural bias in an IQ test, they think of the old 'oarsman to regatta question'. Basically, it goes like this;

Runner is to marathon as;

A) envoy: embassy

B) martyr: massacre

C) oarsman: regatta

D) referee: tournament

E) horse: stable

The correct answer is C. This is fairly obvious to anyone that knows what all of those terms mean, but the argument is that a black urban male from Detroit has a much lower chance of knowing what a regatta is than a white male from Henley-on-Thames.

Culture fair tests simply eliminate questions like this that do, obviously, have a cultural bias.

The best known is probably the Cattell Culture Fair Test - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattell_Culture_Fair_III

[B-Man.]

(Original post by aliluvschoc)
It's also been proven that all tests that have "scientifically proven" this, are geared towards the white middle class male and his style of learning.

Why do Asians perform better than their White counterparts then?

[Aspiringlawstudent]

(Original post by Evangelica)
Personally I believe the offence comes from suggesting it's a genetic rather than environmental thing. Of course if you or I were born in one of Africa's poorest villages our IQ would be lower. This is of course because how many books Sally is left with after Flynn and John is not important to know in such circumstances, what's more important is agricultural knowledge etc. For the record, although I don't know many black people admittedly, the few I do know all have genius IQ levels (over 140) and were born and raised here. I think that says something about the effect of environment.

Really, that says almost nothing about the effect of environment. Something with a much higher probative value is a study of twins raised apart, whose IQs are closely associated despite great environmental differences.

[Evangelica]

(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
Really, that says almost nothing about the effect of environment. Something with a much higher probative value is a study of twins raised apart, whose IQs are closely associated despite great environmental differences.

To the extreme of being raised in a third world village where clean water is difficult enough to come by let alone an education versus being raised in a comfortable middle class family in the West where they have the opportunity to go to grammar / private school? Really? I can't see any parent having agreed to that. It's not greatly comparable.

[Maths_Lover]

(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
When one typically thinks about cultural bias in an IQ test, they think of the old 'oarsman to regatta question'. Basically, it goes like this;

Runner is to marathon as;

A) envoy: embassy

B) martyr: massacre

C) oarsman: regatta

D) referee: tournament

E) horse: stable

The correct answer is C. This is fairly obvious to anyone that knows what all of those terms mean, but the argument is that a black urban male from Detroit has a much lower chance of knowing what a regatta is than a white male from Henley-on-Thames.

Culture fair tests simply eliminate questions like this that do, obviously, have a cultural bias.

The best known is probably the Cattell Culture Fair Test - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattell_Culture_Fair_III

Thank you for the information, I have learned something new today.

[Aspiringlawstudent]

(Original post by Evangelica)
To the extreme of being raised in a third world village where clean water is difficult enough to come by let alone an education versus being raised in a comfortable middle class family in the West where they have the opportunity to go to grammar / private school? Really? I can't see any parent having agreed to that. It's not greatly comparable.

However, what it does illustrate is that IQ is genetic, and not affected in any significant way by environment.

Have you ever read any studies on the heritability of intelligence? (Genuine question - I don't wish to appear rude).

[Aspiringlawstudent]

(Original post by Maths_Lover)
Thank you for the information, I have learned something new today.

Thanks for displaying a genuine interest in it - it's very much easier to engage in discourse in this way rather than when people attempt to shout down anything they disagree with as often takes place on TSR.

I wish rather more posters had the same attitude as you.

[Blutooth]

(Original post by Evangelica)
Personally I believe the offence comes from suggesting it's a genetic rather than environmental thing. Of course if you or I were born in one of Africa's poorest villages our IQ would be lower. This is of course because how many books Sally is left with after Flynn and John is not important to know in such circumstances, what's more important is agricultural knowledge etc. For the record, although I don't know many black people admittedly, the few I do know all have genius IQ levels (over 140) and were born and raised here. I think that says something about the effect of environment.

If you don't mind me asking, how many black people do you know, and how did you come to know that they had genius level IQ?

Curious. People seem to forget that it was only 2 millenia ago that Brits and Celts were viewed as a barbarous race by the Romans. I'd wager the average IQ of a tribal Briton would be lower than the average of an educated Roman citizen back then too.

People are pretty much the same, but have had different experiences which have led them to different places.

[When you see it...]

IQ counts for ****.

[ChocoholicPolyglot]

Having a low IQ doesn't mean that a certain ethnic group or race are less intelligent. I think in our society and in certain areas of the UK there is this "self-fulfilling prophecy" issue. We label certain ethnic groups and so the people who are members of these groups act according to the label because they just give up hope (considering that everyone around them has negative opinions of this group which are not changing) even though they can actually do really well for themselves given the chance. It's not genes or race that causes anyone to appear "less intelligent" but rather it is our society and the constant labelling. Basically, Black people ARE NOT ANY LESS INTELLIGENT than white people or asians or any other ethnic group/race!
And IQ tests aren't considered to be accurate or good enough methods to assess intelligence let alone generalise the findings!

[Dirac Delta Function]

(Original post by B-Man.)
Why do Asians perform better than their White counterparts then?

Indeed.

[Evangelica]

(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
However, what it does illustrate is that IQ is genetic, and not affected in any significant way by environment.

Have you ever read any studies on the heritability of intelligence? (Genuine question - I don't wish to appear rude).

I skimmed through a few papers my friend gave me and I do understand what you're saying but I cannot ignore the evidence that I've seen with my own eyes. Why are the black people I know the sort to get straight As and A*s at GCSE and A-level and go on to universities like Cambridge, St Andrews and LSE? If environment had nothing to do with it then surely the good education they've received would still have rendered them with lower IQs.

I also understand the concept of outliers, but then when I think of a few black people I know from much different backgrounds who don't do as academically well (Cs etc) I definitely notice that there is a link between upbringing and academic success. When the majority of black people live in the kind of environment when good education is not an option it is unsurprising that average IQ is lower. It is just difficult for me to believe, given what I've seen, that environment is not a factor when it comes to IQ.