[bottled]

So apparently there isn't a gender pay gap, more of a pay gap based on motherhood
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...rhood-pay-gap/

What do you think about that?
and assuming that's true do you believe that the mp's measures to ensure payment equality grossly wrong?

[blu tack]

until men and women stay at home equally, a motherhood pay gap is essentially a gender pay gap. Also, it influences employers in the hiring process because they assume women will want to take maternity leave.

[Darth Stewie]

Always agreed with that and think it is completely unreasonable to expect people who take months off because they decided to have a child to somehow remain at the same career level as someone who stayed and worked.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by blu tack)
until men and women stay at home equally, a motherhood pay gap is essentially a gender pay gap.

Well yes, it is still a pay-gap between the genders. But I think the point of identifying it specifically as a motherhood pay gap is to show that it isn't actually a problem that needs sorting out (or at least not as much of a problem as it might look like). This is as opposed to a gender pay gap resulting from something like employers being sexist and refusing people jobs for no other reason than the fact that they are women, or paying women less than men for doing exactly the same job equally well, again for no other reason than their gender.

A pay gap between people who work full time and people who take career breaks or work part time to look after children is to be expected. And if it happens that women choose this option more often than men do - well that's for them to decide. I don't think there's anything we can (or should) do about that.

[blu tack]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Well yes, it is still a pay-gap between the genders. But I think the point of identifying it specifically as a motherhood pay gap is to show that it isn't actually a problem that needs sorting out (or at least not as much of a problem as it might look like). This is as opposed to a gender pay gap resulting from something like employers being sexist and refusing people jobs for no other reason than the fact that they are women, or paying women less than men for doing exactly the same job equally well, again for no other reason than their gender.

A pay gap between people who work full time and people who take career breaks or work part time to look after children is to be expected. And if it happens that women choose this option more often than men do - well that's for them to decide. I don't think there's anything we can (or should) do about that.

you dont think there's anything unequal about the fact that women get much more maternity leave than men get paternity leave? or that it is much more often the women who stay at home? choice comes into it, of course, but the main reason is socialisation from a patriarchal society.

and i've certainly heard of employers discriminating against women because they assume that she will want maternity leave.

NB I'm not saying that people should be paid the same even when they take time off for children, but I do think it'll be a more equal society when men stay at home as often as women do. See for example Sweden, where I believe paternity and maternity leave is much more equal.

[Annoying-Mouse]

The gender pay gap argument was bull**** anyway and there were far too many factors to merely try to blame it on sexism. It's what internet-feminist do who don't understanding something as basic as scientific controlling.

[Nick100]

(Original post by blu tack)
you dont think there's anything unequal about the fact that women get much more maternity leave than men get paternity leave? or that it is much more often the women who stay at home? choice comes into it, of course, but the main reason is socialisation from a patriarchal society.

But that isn't something that can be legislated away nor is it a reason for the government to pass "equal pay" acts. And women aren't denied their rights in this case; it is their own choice to stay at home or keep working.

[Martyn*]

Can anyone give an example where a man is payed more than a woman in the same job/workplace doing the same job?

[codle]

Surely women who have children are contributing just as much as male workers to society, so why shouldn't pay be more equal? I also think maternity and paternity leave should be more equal.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[Friar Chris]

(Original post by blu tack)
until men and women stay at home equally, a motherhood pay gap is essentially a gender pay gap.

There's a problem here, in that you assume that if everyone was totally equal in every way and opportunities and job progression weren't affected by staying at home or your gender, that men and women would stay at home equally.

It's an unrealistic aim; and one which isn't actually helpful if that. A woman should not feel that she must stay home, I agree, but your statement is ignorant of a fact that I (anecdotally) encounter - many women do want to stay home (out of a desire to be a full-time mother, partner - doesn't matter really, it's their choice and reasoning), and this proportion will probably outnumber that of men; probably because no matter how egalitarian society becomes, men aren't about to start giving birth to children.

I know many girls in my year at medical school who want to become a GP in part so they can have (and quote) 'time to raise a family'; on the other hand I know no men who wish to be GPs for the same reason. Given in medicine they'd have a pretty even playing-field for even top surgical jobs compared to most professions*, I think it's a pretty good example of the fact that priorities for men and women are likely on the whole (individually one ought not stereotype, of course) to differ and will probably always do so.

The statement regarding staying at home fails to appreciate that not all differences in demographics between genders are necessarily related to discrimination, sexism or societal expectations.


*I cite two examples - at Brum medical school we have about almost a 70:30 split girls to guys, and today there are female surgical registrars in general surgery than males.

(Original post by codle)
Surely women who have children are contributing just as much as male workers to society, so why shouldn't pay be more equal? I also think maternity and paternity leave should be more equal.

Absolutely, we need to push forward making sure that not only does maternity not unfairly hinder a woman's career and indeed make paternity more equal at least in that sense, but the notion that contribution to society in some way equals wages is a bit silly really. Companies don't pay employees to contribute to society, companies pay employees to work; if a woman ultimately chooses to cut her work hours to spend time with family, the company can't be reasonably expected to pay the same in return for less worker output.

[Barden]

(Original post by Martyn*)
Can anyone give an example where a man is payed more than a woman in the same job/workplace doing the same job?

I wouldn't hold your breath...

[Beebumble]

Where I used to work they openly payed Men more because they felt it looked better if they had a few more men seeing as they mainly had women working for them.

Obviously, this may not be the case for all companies but you can't blame maternity leave for every profession.

[Augmented hippo]

(Original post by Martyn*)
Can anyone give an example where a man is payed more than a woman in the same job/workplace doing the same job?

I know this is the extreme end of the scale and probably not a good example but out of forbes list of top paid 100 athletes there are 2 women. I agree with you about it being difficult to find women and men on different salaries for your average jobs. It seems to be when you go to the top end of the spectrum you notice disparity in pay.

[madders94]

The only professional inequality I think still poses a big problem is women's football - I think there'd be more women enjoying football if women's was given more exposure. Also women should be more encouraged to go into refereeing without fear of rubbish comments from fans and spectators like "Hurr durr do you even know the offside rule "

[Empire08]

(Original post by madders94)
The only professional inequality I think still poses a big problem is women's football - I think there'd be more women enjoying football if women's was given more exposure. Also women should be more encouraged to go into refereeing without fear of rubbish comments from fans and spectators like "Hurr durr do you even know the offside rule "

The thing is no one cares about watching women's football, therefore there is no money to be made from it.

It's not sexism, it's just business.

[madders94]

(Original post by Empire08)
The thing is no one cares about watching women's football, therefore there is no money to be made from it.

It's not sexism, it's just business.

But I think if it was given more exposure, women would be more inclined to watch it (or maybe it's just me who isn't female and only watches football for the apparently "sexy" players - yeah, because Rooney really does it for me ), and it would get more business?

Maybe if the girls swapped shirts at the end of the game there'd be more guys watching it I enjoy watching women's football but I see your point; however my point about referees still stands. It's largely portrayed as a man's job and if a woman does it she's basically sentencing herself to men making lewd or abusive comments every weekend.

[Martyn*]

(Original post by Augmented hippo)
I know this is the extreme end of the scale and probably not a good example but out of forbes list of top paid 100 athletes there are 2 women. I agree with you about it being difficult to find women and men on different salaries for your average jobs. It seems to be when you go to the top end of the spectrum you notice disparity in pay.

Do you mean that a female CEO of a particular company will be payed less than a male CEO working in that same company essentially doing the same job? This may not be a good example but males dominate the CEO jobs:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ce...w=1664&bih=861

[Barden]

(Original post by Augmented hippo)
I know this is the extreme end of the scale and probably not a good example but out of forbes list of top paid 100 athletes there are 2 women. I agree with you about it being difficult to find women and men on different salaries for your average jobs. It seems to be when you go to the top end of the spectrum you notice disparity in pay.

One could argue that they aren't doing the same job though.

That 'womens' 100m running' and 'mens' 100m running' are two seperate occupations...

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by blu tack)
you dont think there's anything unequal about the fact that women get much more maternity leave than men get paternity leave?

Unequal? Yes. Unfair? No. Men don't get pregnant. Whereas a pregnant woman due to give birth any day now will probably find it more difficult to get to work and do their jobs every day.

or that it is much more often the women who stay at home? choice comes into it, of course, but the main reason is socialisation from a patriarchal society.

Well what are you supposed to to - tell lots of women "sorry, you can't stay at home, you'll have to get your husband to do it, because it's due to socialisation from a patriarchal society that you'd rather do it yourself"? For whatever reason, if they're choosing to stay at home, then you can't really stop them (and why should you?)

and i've certainly heard of employers discriminating against women because they assume that she will want maternity leave.

NB I'm not saying that people should be paid the same even when they take time off for children, but I do think it'll be a more equal society when men stay at home as often as women do. See for example Sweden, where I believe paternity and maternity leave is much more equal.

If we ever reach a stage in society where men are staying at home as much as women are for childcare reasons (despite the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant), then I would expect the pay gap to naturally close as a result of this. But until then, if the current pay gap can mostly be explained by a perfectly innocent reason (i.e. women choose to do less paid work overall), then I don't really see it as a problem. Nobody is doing anything wrong.

[whatsername2009]

(Original post by Nick100)
But that isn't something that can be legislated away nor is it a reason for the government to pass "equal pay" acts. And women aren't denied their rights in this case; it is their own choice to stay at home or keep working.

So when two people have a baby, the parents are completely free to decide who goes back to work after a week or two and who stays at home for the first year of its life? Oh wait, no, because only one of those two people has the option of taking a year off before returning to work. Add to that society's outdated assumption that men are breadwinners and that childcare is women's work and you'll see that this "choice" isn't straightforward at all. I have no doubt that there are plenty of families that would choose this arrangement even if it wasn't forced on them, but you can't deny that it is.