[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
well of course given the time passed (and all that has come with it) . . . the central concept of islam remains and is universal (indeed there are slight differences from sect to sect and different nations (cultural traditions etc) . . . . In terms of britain (and europe) it hasn't and will not change according to british values/beliefs (as christianity has - and i suspect this is what gets to anti-islamists)

british laws haven't changed to accomodate islam and will not - it will remain as it has been . . . .

chrisatianity in britain has changed, of course it has - if it were the same as it was in 1300, you as a muslim (?) wouldnt even be allowed to reside in this coutry with the rights you do now. We would have resemblance to countries such as saudi arabia where minorities such as non muslims have less legal rights than the majority. We make no apologies for that fact, and it gets to noone, do we see europes millions of muslims all flocking to live under arabs and their islamic laws as oppossed to western ones? I think not.

[Astronomical]

(Original post by Scienceisgood)
Hey Guys;

Well as you know, Islam is getting a name for itself now in British media and not a name that anyone particularly wants. Anyway, I was just wondering but you know how a lot of people are claiming that Islam is clashing with British views, one basic claim is that how Halal meat is being basically forced upon us and the food is not even labelled "Halal" which causes a large degree of outcry for people claiming they don't want halal but don't have a choice (unless pork).

I think people would like to see it labelled as Halal myself just as eggs are labelled battery or free range.

Do you think that Britain needs to change or Islam needs to compromise with British values. Provide your own views/beliefs on this.

Why on Earth would Britain, a secular country, change for any religion, let alone one which is only followed by a small minority of citizens?

[Fg=GM1M2/r^2]

(Original post by Joe909)
You provided zero contribution to the thread, as well as being 100% off topic. If you want to live in a country where Islamic laws are primary, please, go there. Otherwise, integrate with the laws that have been in this country since formation.

Many thanks. Of course the negs will by flying at me soon and although it was blunt, it is totally true.

Actually i do contribute to the thread as i give my opinion on whether or not britain needs to make some change for islam, which is what i have done... *whispers* i think you need to read the question again... properly * and i was born here... i dont need to go anywhere, i have the freedom to wear what i like when i like and live where i want when i want... stop being opressive, k many thanks.
Peace be with you

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
chrisatianity in britain has changed, of course it has - if it were the same as it was in 1300, you as a muslim (?) wouldnt even be allowed to reside in this coutry with the rights you do now. We would have resemblance to countries such as saudi arabia where minorities such as non muslims have less legal rights than the majority. We make no apologies for that fact, and it gets to noone, do we see europes millions of muslims all flocking to live under arabs and their islamic laws as oppossed to western ones? I think not.

indeed my point is that christianity has changed (liberalised) and this is what certain people are expecitng of islam (which isn't going to happen and why islam is seen as a threat) . . . islam won't change for britian or europe - it is only individual muslims who can change.

[Bright.Inspiration.]

(Original post by Scienceisgood)
Do you think that Britain needs to change

No.

The law and religion should be kept completey separate. And people should be proud to carry on British values because we are a tolerant society as it is. (I'm a British Indian btw)

[A Mysterious Lord]

(Original post by thecrimsonidol)
As an Atheist, I feel the religion (not just Islam - any religion) should change to adapt to society.
Religion should certainly be kept out of Government and policy. And I can't say I care much for the idea of faith schools at all.

This 100%.

[madders94]

(Original post by Fg=GM1M2/r^2)
Actually i do contribute to the thread as i give my opinion on whether or not britain needs to make some change for islam, which is what i have done... *whispers* i think you need to read the question again... properly * and i was born here... i dont need to go anywhere, i have the freedom to wear what i like when i like and live where i want when i want... stop being opressive, k many thanks.
Peace be with you

Unless a law comes in prohibiting you from wearing what you like when you like, in which case, in this country you do not have that freedom but are welcome to go to a country where you can.

That's the most important thing - if people don't like the rules that this country imposes, and the reason they don't like the rules is due to their religion, there is very little to stop them going to said country and living by their religious rules there.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by madders94)
Unless a law comes in prohibiting you from wearing what you like when you like, in which case, in this country you do not have that freedom but are welcome to go to a country where you can.

That's the most important thing - if people don't like the rules that this country imposes, and the reason they don't like the rules is due to their religion, there is very little to stop them going to said country and living by their religious rules there.

but they question arises, why should they have to leave their country in order to live as they wish? Why not follow the democratic process and challenge those powers which stop them living as they see fit (be it a religous issue or otherwise)

[Aspire_to_Inspire]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
indeed my point is that christianity has changed (liberalised) and this is what certain people are expecitng of islam (which isn't going to happen and why islam is seen as a threat) . . . islam won't change for britian or europe - it is only individual muslims who can change.

...

[Fg=GM1M2/r^2]

(Original post by Politricks)
Well according to the most trusted hadith, Shahih Bukhari (5: 58:236), Aisha was married off at 6, and consummated the marriage at 9. So you feel it should be legal for a 9 year old in Britain to have sex? Remember, everything the prophet did should be an exemplar for all mankind, so seeing as he has sex with a 9 year old - you should have no problem with it?

Apostates being murdered has nothing to do with culture, that's the penalty for leaving Islam.

Wait, I thought you said Islam was perfect? It seems as if you have a problem with the punishment of lashing for having sex for fornication? Everything about Islam should be perfect. Because Islam is so perfect, your religion should stand the test of time if it is perfect, if you religion is indeed perfect, then you should have no problem with lashing; I thought everything about Islam was meant to be universal?

Well i cant comment on the marriage of my beloved prophet, it was divinely inspired, and hence i cannot comment upon it as such. There were many political reasons... also Aishah agreed, which is the main thing, it wasnt forced as the two were very close indeed.
It is to do with culture, we dont do it here in britain because of the culture and way of life... however 1400 years ago in arabia, im sure it happened all the time, and the state had no problem with it... we have to look at the time all this happened in.
My religion has withstood the test of time, you say it as if islam is crumbling... it certainly is not, its the fastest growing religion in the world... why's that? Because it is perfect
Peace be with you

[Brutal Honesty]

(Original post by Suetonius)
Well Islam can't "change for Britain" because its precepts are already set and are deemed to be unalterable. Islam, an intrinsically primitive and intolerant religion, is incompatible with high-minded British tolerance.

Well we're not really talking about Islam here, we're talking about Muslims. Islam doesn't do anything nor does it exist in any meaningful sense outside of its followers. Muslims, whether conservative or liberal, devout or lax can operate perfectly well within Britain whilst following the seemingly rigid principles of an ancient religion.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Aspire_to_Inspire)
You keep saying that christianity has changed. In what ways has it changed? The entire christian doctrine is still exactly the same as it was 2000 years ago

in terms more liberal views (not the central religous doctrine ) . . . . something which wouldn't be seen happening in islam.

[Fg=GM1M2/r^2]

(Original post by madders94)
Unless a law comes in prohibiting you from wearing what you like when you like, in which case, in this country you do not have that freedom but are welcome to go to a country where you can.

That's the most important thing - if people don't like the rules that this country imposes, and the reason they don't like the rules is due to their religion, there is very little to stop them going to said country and living by their religious rules there.

Yeah but that would be morally wrong and a great injustice will have been done. And for now this country imposes no such law therefore lets all get over it, respect the beliefs of others and get on with their own lives
May peace be with you

[madders94]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
but they question arises, why should they have to leave their country in order to live as they wish? Why not follow the democratic process and challenge those powers which stop them living as they see fit (be it a religous issue or otherwise)

Well, I could say that I want to live my life as a serial killer... should I be allowed to? Surely if they say no, that impacts my human rights?

(Original post by Fg=GM1M2/r^2)
Yeah but that would be morally wrong and a great injustice will have been done. And for now this country imposes no such law therefore lets all get over it, respect the beliefs of others and get on with their own lives
May peace be with you

I think it depends on the reasoning behind it; if it's for security reasons regarding the niqab and burqa, I think it's reasonable to ban the facial veil when it could pose a security risk, however, purely because people complain it is a sign of the Islamification of Britain or whatever, I would strongly disagree with banning it in that case. I agree with people's rights to live as they please as long as no laws are contravened or changed to meet that.

[Aspire_to_Inspire]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
in terms more liberal views (not the central religous doctrine ) . . . . something which wouldn't be seen happening in islam.

...

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by madders94)
Well, I could say that I want to live my life as a serial killer... should I be allowed to? Surely if they say no, that impacts my human rights?



I think it depends on the reasoning behind it; if it's for security reasons regarding the niqab and burqa, I think it's reasonable to ban the facial veil when it could pose a security risk, however, purely because people complain it is a sign of the Islamification of Britain or whatever, I would strongly disagree with banning it in that case. I agree with people's rights to live as they please as long as no laws are contravened or changed to meet that.

its your choice if you want to live as a serial killer or a ninja. You will indeed be challenged on your way of life, but whether or not you choose to accept the challenge is down to you as an individual. Many people in britain who face challenges to their way of life, choose to relocate to another country. Others don't and stay put and follow to democratic process to fight for what they want and believe.

[Suetonius]

(Original post by Brutal Honesty)
Well we're not really talking about Islam here, we're talking about Muslims. Islam doesn't do anything nor does it exist in any meaningful sense outside of its followers. Muslims, whether conservative or liberal, devout or lax can operate perfectly well within Britain whilst following the seemingly rigid principles of an ancient religion.

If a Muslim believes that apostates should be killed and that women should be subordinate - as the holy texts order - then his/her views are totally incompatible with the Enlightenment values on which our culture is based. If someone doesn't dogmatically adhere to the teachings of the Quran and Hadith then I don't see on what basis they can claim to be a Muslim, but that's not really for me to decide. Someone can call themselves a "Muslim" if they want to, just as they're free to call themselves a "Mermaid" or a "Squirrel".

However, the question isn't really whether they "can operate perfectly well within Britain". It's obvious that they can. Successive British governments have embraced cultural relativism under the guise of "multiculturalism", and treated the most outspoken religious fanatics' ideals as being representative of the entire Muslim demographic. This has led to us accepting primitive religious practices like circumcision and forced marriages, often while the perpetrators of such deprave acts are regularly picking up a welfare cheque. I agree, it's quite easy for the most "conservative" (which is a euphemism) Muslim to "operate" in Britain, precisely because of the extent our masters will go to accommodate and appease them.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Aspire_to_Inspire)
That's true but you can't really generalise and say all christians have become more liberal and to be fair, I've actually met muslims that have no problem eating pork, getting drunk and doing other "haram" things.
What would you say about these "liberal" muslims? ( I hope you don't think I'm attacking you - genuine question)

im not talking about your mate abdul or mohamed who shags around or drinks, but about the liberalisation of the church in britian and how this is also expected of islam. The fact that this change won't happen in islam is what gets to anti-islamists and others.

[im so academic]

(Original post by noisy06)
Well, as a Muslim, I sure damn want the food that is halal labelled properly. I want to see clearly what is halal and what is haram.

So eating British meat is bad now, is it?

[bkeevin]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
chrisatianity in britain has changed, of course it has - if it were the same as it was in 1300, you as a muslim (?) wouldnt even be allowed to reside in this coutry with the rights you do now. We would have resemblance to countries such as saudi arabia where minorities such as non muslims have less legal rights than the majority. We make no apologies for that fact, and it gets to noone, do we see europes millions of muslims all flocking to live under arabs and their islamic laws as oppossed to western ones? I think not.

How do you explain the fact that there are many muslim majority countries with large indigenous religious minorities in the middle east in countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq etc. If they were so intolerant those millions of christians and jews would never have remained there for all the centuries under islamic rule/laws. Religious tolerance in christian Europe is a fairly recent phenomenon. We were so intolerant our monarch is still not constitutionally allowed to marry a catholic!!!