[P.Kaur]

(Original post by AkaJetson)
I assume gay marriage isn't allowed, given that the leader of the sikh community apparently called an 'assault on religion'

I laughed when I read that; he's not the "leader" of the Sikh community, 99.9% of us don't know who he is. He is just one of the few Sikhs who's made it into a high political position... damn newspapers distort everything.

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
so from this what do the sikhs interpret about homosexuality?

Since there is no mention of homosexuality in Sikh scriptures, opinions on it vary from person to person. Some Sikhs believe it's okay, others disagree. I'd say the majority of people I've met don't have much of an opinion on it but sway towards believing it to be wrong.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by P.Kaur)
I laughed when I read that; he's not the "leader" of the Sikh community, 99.9% of us don't know who he is. He is just one of the few Sikhs who's made it into a high political position... damn newspapers distort everything.



Since there is no mention of homosexuality in Sikh scriptures, opinions on it vary from person to person. Some Sikhs believe it's okay, others disagree. I'd say the majority of people I've met don't have much of an opinion on it but sway towards believing it to be wrong.

perhaps because its not an issue openly seen in the sikh community and wider culture. Perhaps if it was more prevalent then peoples "moral judgements" would surface.

[P.Kaur]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
perhaps because its not an issue openly seen in the sikh community and wider culture. Perhaps if it was more prevalent then peoples "moral judgements" would surface.

Probably.. often news of the few Sikhs in America having had homosexual marriages has sparked discussion, but it's not really common.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by P.Kaur)
Probably.. often news of the few Sikhs in America having had homosexual marriages has sparked discussion, but it's not really common.

most likely a hidden thing like in other asian communities such as the musilms and hindus . . . . I don't think sikh parents would be happy with their kids being gay and having such relationships.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by bkeevin)
What I am asking you to do is to look at society with historical perspective. Here in the UK we also used to have ecclesiastical courts and bishops used to be judges and BTW can you remind me how many bishops(mullahs!) are in the House of Lords NOW? Laws in most of the west have been influenced by religion. If we have been able to stop using bible to draft our laws in christian Europe I see no reason why the islamic middle east would not follow suit in due course.

I also remind now and again it was a criminal offence to be gay in Britain only 60years ago. In the Southern states of the US, the police , judges, businesses citizens had to discriminate against of colour BY LAW up until 1968-64. You can sugar coat it anyway you like but we don't have gay marriage in the UK/US/most of the west because of religion and its influence.I have already provided you an example to you that last year the US military had the LEGAL DUTY to DISCRIMINATE against gay people as they had to be dismissed if they were outed under the the 'Don't Ask Dont Tell' laws enacted by Clinton in 1993! Why would a western democracy with liberal values make such laws less 20years ago?

I dont see the past as being relevant here- in the past we used to live in caves and hit each other with animal bones.
Im saying islamic countries Today have plenty of moral examples, international human rights legislation, and indeed the lessons of history - but they choose to apply laws of disriminatoin and persecution by insisting on following 1300 y/o scriptures, whcih is idiotic. Would we roll the clock back 500 years as you highlight where we burnt witches and chained black people?

[bkeevin]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
I dont see the past as being relevant here- in the past we used to live in caves and hit each other with animal bones.
Im saying islamic countries Today have plenty of moral examples, international human rights legislation, and indeed the lessons of history - but they choose to apply laws of disriminatoin and persecution by insisting on following 1300 y/o scriptures, whcih is idiotic. Would we roll the clock back 500 years as you highlight where we burnt witches and chained black people?

Most of the examples I gave you are fairly recent by historic standards. Americans had plenty of moral examples in the world but they still chose to draft the DADT anti gay laws only 19years ago. In case you did not know that law was only repealed LAST YEAR after a lot campaigns from the pro and con sides. We choose to only grant the lesser and discriminatory Civil Partnership as opposed to a civil marriage to gay peope only in 2004 in Britain and as a result gay people are banned from marriage. Believe me there are many people who would like us to bring back many our most archaic laws like the death penalty, birch, hard labour, borstal etc. It is only a matter that the progressive forces currently outnumber the conservatives in the west. But as soon as there is a real or perceived threat in a society the conservative forces will start to win again.

The change you are demanding from islamic societies(social and legal) will only come if we are dispassionate and gave them time. You fail to understand that islamic societies are less mature and educated than Western society. The people have an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the West that has subjugated and humiliated them over the past century so they are very unlikely to accept advice from us on how they should live.

They feel we are attacking their society, tradition and culture and find comfort in islamic laws since that is what they used when they were free from our interference. We need to let them experience it for themselves to realise how it is oppressive and against their interest.

[softsez]

(Original post by Dubstep Prince)
What ****ing issue do you non-muslims have with eating halah meat?!
The halal way is slitting the throat which is a quick and painless death.

Oh, but it's the Muslims making unreasonable demands

Just as you believe halal to be right is it so ridiculous that others belive non-halal to be right. Typical brainwashed moron who belives its islam or nothing. Try and open your mind and show a little understanding as im sure you expect the same to be shown in return.

[Phantom_X]

(Original post by PurpleMonkeyDishwasher)
Islam should adapt to the rules set by society, society should never have to adapt to the rules set by religion.

For arguments sake, lets say that society believed that ritual sacrifice of one's first born was justified- in this case, should religious people simply adapt and accept it?

I know its quite an exaggerated example, but the point stands that religious people aren't inherently anti-modern. They just believe that society- and those that dictate the directions of society, aren't always the best at doing so. Some 'micro-examples' may include things like the economy- we all have seen the effects of crony corporate capitalism and how it has affected the world's poor. Most religious people believe that economy should work whereby the poor are taxed the least, and there is a fair distribution of resources; yet, because this does not fit an inherent 'societal' model, does that mean such suggestions should be rubbished?

I feel that religion does have a role to play in shaping society, whether we like it or not.

[Dubstep Prince]

(Original post by softsez)
Just as you believe halal to be right is it so ridiculous that others belive non-halal to be right. Typical brainwashed moron who belives its islam or nothing. Try and open your mind and show a little understanding as im sure you expect the same to be shown in return.

*Believes. It is a shame that you resort to bitter name calling, and trying to insult my intelligence, when you fail to spell believe correctly.

So what do you expect me to do? Change my religious beliefs? You can stick that idea where the sun doesn't shine mate, because I'll have you know, majority of the people who are against eating halal food are atheist. Please do come back and tell me when you find the apparent rule in Atheism, which condemns halal food.

Thank you, and goodbye

[makaveli33]

No not really, Islam fits in quite well.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by bkeevin)
Most of the examples I gave you are fairly recent by historic standards. Americans had plenty of moral examples in the world but they still chose to draft the DADT anti gay laws only 19years ago. In case you did not know that law was only repealed LAST YEAR after a lot campaigns from the pro and con sides. We choose to only grant the lesser and discriminatory Civil Partnership as opposed to a civil marriage to gay peope only in 2004 in Britain and as a result gay people are banned from marriage. Believe me there are many people who would like us to bring back many our most archaic laws like the death penalty, birch, hard labour, borstal etc. It is only a matter that the progressive forces currently outnumber the conservatives in the west. But as soon as there is a real or perceived threat in a society the conservative forces will start to win again.

The change you are demanding from islamic societies(social and legal) will only come if we are dispassionate and gave them time. You fail to understand that islamic societies are less mature and educated than Western society. The people have an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the West that has subjugated and humiliated them over the past century so they are very unlikely to accept advice from us on how they should live.

They feel we are attacking their society, tradition and culture and find comfort in islamic laws since that is what they used when they were free from our interference. We need to let them experience it for themselves to realise how it is oppressive and against their interest.

If your entire argument on a thread about is islam is to point out other historical mistakes to jsutify regiems like saudi arabia, then you have no argument.

Despite our (western) legal system not being perfect, we dont base our norals and ideals on 1300 year sripture which glorfy segregation, discrimination, even slavery - which islamic scriputre unarguabley does.

so the question you havent answered is, how will that ever change?

[bkeevin]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
If your entire argument on a thread about is islam is to point out other historical mistakes to jsutify regiems like saudi arabia, then you have no argument.

Despite our (western) legal system not being perfect, we dont base our norals and ideals on 1300 year sripture which glorfy segregation, discrimination, even slavery - which islamic scriputre unarguabley does.

so the question you havent answered is, how will that ever change?

I provided other examples to you simply to prove that our very own western societies have dealt with similar problems and are still dealing with some of those despite the existence of similar abrahamic faith which limited and limits our social evolution.

We may not currently base our morals and ideals right now but the fact is we did it for a very long time and a 2000-3000 old bible is still influencing our present UK laws thanks to all those bishops and other conservative legislators within our parliaments.

Ask yourself the very same question about how we managed to change with the bible glorifying inarguably even worse attrocities than islamic scripture(genocide, slavery,murder,discrimination,in cest, human sacrifice etc).

The change will come as the people get better education especially the women; after having experienced the rule and corruption of the mullahs, they will realise how important freedom and democracy is. As long as woman remain illiterate and those societies are not allowed to experience then reject a shariah based society if that is the will of the people we will always have the problems you decry.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by bkeevin)
I provided other examples to you simply to prove that our very own western societies have dealt with similar problems and are still dealing with some of those despite the existence of similar abrahamic faith which limited and limits our social evolution.

We may not currently base our morals and ideals right now but the fact is we did it for a very long time and a 2000-3000 old bible is still influencing our present UK laws thanks to all those bishops and other conservative legislators within our parliaments.

Ask yourself the very same question about how we managed to change with the bible glorifying inarguably even worse attrocities than islamic scripture(genocide, slavery,murder,discrimination,in cest, human sacrifice etc).

The change will come as the people get better education especially the women; after having experienced the rule and corruption of the mullahs, they will realise how important freedom and democracy is. As long as woman remain illiterate and those societies are not allowed to experience then reject a shariah based society if that is the will of the people we will always have the problems you decry.

you clealry dont understand islam at all - muslims cannot simply "reject sharia", if they did so they would be admitting fault in islam, which they are unable to do. And if they were to hear a muslim doing so publically, they would feel within their rights to kill him.

[farhiyaserar]

(Original post by madders94)
Unless a law comes in prohibiting you from wearing what you like when you like, in which case, in this country you do not have that freedom but are welcome to go to a country where you can.

But wouldn't that be a breach in the human rights document?

[bkeevin]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
you clealry dont understand islam at all - muslims cannot simply "reject sharia", if they did so they would be admitting fault in islam, which they are unable to do. And if they were to hear a muslim doing so publically, they would feel within their rights to kill him.

I would equally state the same thing about christianity in the past and tell you don't understand it and christians cannot reject the Lord Jesus or the inerrant bible teachings as many scientists' treatment like Galileo attest. We used to kill people simply because they had a different interpretation of christianity to ours and declared them heretics.

You would be misguided to believe that islamic belief in its perfection and inerrancy of the Coran is any different to christianity when it went through that very phase through out the west. The islamic societies have changed and will keep changing whether they try to implement the sharia laws or not since those laws themselves are can be subject to harsh/liberal interpretations if they wanted.

Please just read our own history and that of the arabs you will understand how we evolved from there before coming to your conclusions. Our society did not become as liberal as it is overnight and we have to give the Saudis, afghans etc time to evolve at their own rythm.

[lonelyknight]

Islam does not have a place in the UK. End of. You come and live in my country, you adopt my country's values and way of life.
And before you call me ignorant, maybe you need to take a long look at yourself. YOU are the ignorant one, thinking you can barge your way into my beautiful country doing what you like.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by bkeevin)
I would equally state the same thing about christianity in the past and tell you don't understand it and christians cannot reject the Lord Jesus or the inerrant bible teachings as many scientists' treatment like Galileo attest. We used to kill people simply because they had a different interpretation of christianity to ours and declared them heretics.

You would be misguided to believe that islamic belief in its perfection and inerrancy of the Coran is any different to christianity when it went through that very phase through out the west. The islamic societies have changed and will keep changing whether they try to implement the sharia laws or not since those laws themselves are can be subject to harsh/liberal interpretations if they wanted.

Please just read our own history and that of the arabs you will understand how we evolved from there before coming to your conclusions. Our society did not become as liberal as it is overnight and we have to give the Saudis, afghans etc time to evolve at their own rythm.

"u would be misguided to believe that islamic belief in its perfection and inerrancy of the Coran"

its spelt quran or koran, nor coran - and again you demonstrate your ignornce about the practice of islam, yes muslims HAVE to believe in the 'perfection" of the quran, otherwise they are not muslim. Nor are they in any position to critisise any established islamic laws or edicts- for fear of being branded heretics and having death warrants issued against themsleves ( much like meidival christian countries) .

the point you seem unable to grasp is we are not living in medieval times anymore, which is where clashes of culture and morality arise in respect of islam. So it is a recirculating problem

[bkeevin]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
"u would be misguided to believe that islamic belief in its perfection and inerrancy of the Coran"

its spelt quran or koran, nor coran - and again you demonstrate your ignornce about the practice of islam, yes muslims HAVE to believe in the 'perfection" of the quran, otherwise they are not muslim. Nor are they in any position to critisise any established islamic laws or edicts- for fear of being branded heretics and having death warrants issued against themsleves ( much like meidival christian countries) .

the point you seem unable to grasp is we are not living in medieval times anymore, which is where clashes of culture and morality arise in respect of islam. So it is a recirculating problem

Coran is a valid and perfectly acceptable spelling of the arabic word 'Al Qur'An' even though its use is infrequent compared to the other two spellings.

We simply cannot force those countries to drop their bad and medieval laws until they realise how they are holding them back. What I know is they will come round to a more liberal way of thinking eventually and encouragement and dialogue will go a long way more than us condemning and confronting them needlessly. Anyway I wish you good luck if you think that it is the best way to convince moderate muslims embrace liberal values with your way of proceeding.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by bkeevin)
Coran is a valid and perfectly acceptable spelling of the arabic word 'Al Qur'An' even though its use is infrequent compared to the other two spellings.

We simply cannot force those countries to drop their bad and medieval laws until they realise how they are holding them back. What I know is they will come round to a more liberal way of thinking eventually and encouragement and dialogue will go a long way more than us condemning and confronting them needlessly. Anyway I wish you good luck if you think that it is the best way to convince moderate muslims embrace liberal values with your way of proceeding.

I havent offered any 'best way' i was pointed out your irrellevant notion that you can 'talk a muslim into rejecting their beleif system and ingrained attitudes' which has been cultivated relatively unchanged for 1300 years. IF muslims choose to live under antiquated islamic laws and follow them above the laws of the land which is how they have been bouoght up, what conversation exactly do you expect to have ?

[Tensei]

No disrespect to the religion, but Britain should not change, it should be reasonable but should not change.

Also if the country changes for one religion how will others view this >.<