[Borderline]

(Original post by fallen_acorns)
you are gettting sex/gender mixed up...

but you are correct, you cant change your gender...

a female person is still female, and will always bee female regardless of what is between their legs

trans people, dont wish to change their gender - but rather to have their physical body match the gender they already are...

Imagine how you would feel, if you suddenly woke up in the body of the oposite sex, with your current brain?- thats how a trans person feels, each day

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, because it truly isn't intended that way. But transgender people, I believe, may think what they wish, but that their gender corresponds to their body. Just because somebody feels that they "know" their gender does not correspond to their body does not mean they are right. Many people think that they are certain of things that are, in reality, not the case.

You really shouldn't be dictating what you are saying as fact. None of this has been proven, and to me the idea that a man can be "born in a woman's body" is more unlikely. But still, I respect your opinion and have written with that in mind - you, however, speak about this as though you are doubtlessly correct.

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by Borderline)
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, because it truly isn't intended that way. But transgender people, I believe, may think what they wish, but that their gender corresponds to their body. Just because somebody feels that they "know" their gender does not correspond to their body does not mean they are right. Many people think that they are certain of things that are, in reality, not the case.

You really shouldn't be dictating what you are saying as fact. None of this has been proven, and to me the idea that a man can be "born in a woman's body" is more unlikely. But still, I respect your opinion and have written with that in mind - you, however, speak about this as though you are doubtlessly correct.

Well gender is a term that was created by sociologist to describe the phenomenon of social roles that exist in a society. Some societies have more than two. Some have 3 or more. So...to say that gender isn't something that is fact...is a bit ill-informed.

[Borderline]

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
Just going to say your sex changes when you have sex reassignment surgery. Also if you followed what you said that your genitalia determine your sex then if you had surgery your sex would change and not necessarily your gender. I'm not trying to be aggressive...just pointed something out.

Fair enough, it's just I use the terms transsexual and transgender interchangeably like most people so I didn't realise the difference would be important in this context. And I know you aren't being aggressive

[blu tack]

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
Um....no...this isn't true....You can change both your sex and your gender if you accept what Borderline said. Sex is determined by your genitalia, therefore surgery would change your sex. Gender is separate from your sex, in that it is the social role and identity of being a man or woman...This can definitely be changed as well...someone brought up as a boy, who is male, can become a woman. And similarly someone who is brought up as a girl, who is female, can become a man. They could also change their sex. Also just to be clear...you can change your sex but not your gender....hope that clears things up a bit...

You just said you can change your gender and you can't change your gender in the same post. What?

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by Borderline)
Fair enough, it's just I use the terms transsexual and transgender interchangeably like most people so I didn't realise the difference would be important in this context.

I understand the confusion. As many people use the term 'trans' to imply both.

[NYU2012]

(Original post by Borderline)

You really shouldn't be dictating what you are saying as fact. None of this has been proven, and to me the idea that a man can be "born in a woman's body" is more unlikely. But still, I respect your opinion and have written with that in mind - you, however, speak about this as though you are doubtlessly correct.

(1) If a person feels as though they were born in the wrong sex body, who are you to question the idea that they were born as the wrong sex? It's a fact that they feel that way; that's incontestable.

(2) Studies on transsexual brains by neuroscientists have revealed some interesting things, primarily that the brain can develop sexually dimporphically away from the sex of the body (I.e. male genitalia but a female 'brain-sex').

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by blu tack)
You just said you can change your gender and you can't change your gender in the same post. What?

No I said you can change your sex without changing your gender, not that you couldn't change your gender every. You can change your sex and your gender, or you could change your gender and not your sex, or you could changer your sex but not your gender...I hope that cleared it up lol

[blu tack]

(Original post by Borderline)
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, because it truly isn't intended that way. But transgender people, I believe, may think what they wish, but that their gender corresponds to their body. Just because somebody feels that they "know" their gender does not correspond to their body does not mean they are right. Many people think that they are certain of things that are, in reality, not the case.

You really shouldn't be dictating what you are saying as fact. None of this has been proven, and to me the idea that a man can be "born in a woman's body" is more unlikely. But still, I respect your opinion and have written with that in mind - you, however, speak about this as though you are doubtlessly correct.

'I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but despite having no experience in this area, I feel able to dictate to you that you are wrong in your self-assessment, and that despite the fact that people much more qualified than me disagree with this, all transgender people are wrong in their feelings'.

Is what I read. Incredibly rude.

[blu tack]

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
No I said you can change your sex without changing your gender, not that you couldn't change your gender every. You can change your sex and your gender, or you could change your gender and not your sex, or you could changer your sex but not your gender...I hope that cleared it up lol

I think I'm getting mixed up with the idea of gender as a social construct and a social role (i.e. people see you as a biological male and therefore treat you as a man), and an internal self-assessment of gender (i.e you are biologically born with a penis but see yourself as a woman i.e your gender is female). So in the first case you could change your gender, but in the second case your 'inside' gender wouldn't change. Right?

[Borderline]

(Original post by NYU2012)
(1) If a person feels as though they were born in the wrong sex body, who are you to question the idea that they were born as the wrong sex? It's a fact that they feel that way; that's incontestable.

(2) Studies on transsexual brains by neuroscientists have revealed some interesting things, primarily that the brain can develop sexually dimporphically away from the sex of the body (I.e. male genitalia but a female 'brain-sex').

In response to point one: I am stating my belief. Who are you to question my right to an opinion? When I am clearly stating it is not a fact.
And don't be ridiculous. Just because somebody feels Something does not make it a fact. That would make every religion on the planet correct, every moral opinion the right one, etc. etc.

[NYU2012]

(Original post by blu tack)
I think I'm getting mixed up with the idea of gender as a social construct and a social role (i.e. people see you as a biological male and therefore treat you as a man), and an internal self-assessment of gender (i.e you are biologically born with a penis but see yourself as a woman i.e your gender is female). So in the first case you could change your gender, but in the second case your 'inside' gender wouldn't change. Right?

To clarify:

Gender is what your social role is; what feminine, masculine, or other qualities you may have; whether you identify as a man, woman or other; how you behave; what social role you believe you fill; and how society perceives you

Sex is whether you are male or female; what genitalia you have.

One can change their gender without any type of surgery; one can only change their sex through surgery.

If I have male genitalia, but identify my gender as being a woman, then I am woman, regardless of how society may perceive me (at least in every case we need concern ourselves with for purposes here)

[Borderline]

(Original post by blu tack)
'I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but despite having no experience in this area, I feel able to dictate to you that you are wrong in your self-assessment, and that despite the fact that people much more qualified than me disagree with this, all transgender people are wrong in their feelings'.

Is what I read. Incredibly rude.

Then you cannot read. My constant reminders that this is merely what "I believe" have clearly been ignored by you as they do not fit the opinion you wish to have of me. And again, a person's feelings do not dictate the truth - so you cannot use that as a reason to claim your opinion is much more meaningful than mine.

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by blu tack)
I think I'm getting mixed up with the idea of gender as a social construct and a social role (i.e. people see you as a biological male and therefore treat you as a man), and an internal self-assessment of gender (i.e you are biologically born with a penis but see yourself as a woman i.e your gender is female). So in the first case you could change your gender, but in the second case your 'inside' gender wouldn't change. Right?

haha this is where gender gets kinda complicated. So you are right it is both a social construct and a social role/identity. However, theoretically you change your identity and then change your social behaviors so as to be seen as the gender you identify as. For example you can be biologically male, but wish to be seen as a woman. In order to do this, you act more 'feminine' and do more 'womanly' things, ie wearing dresses, shaving legs, putting on makeup, etc. This would lead your social role (how you are treated and seen) to be more like a woman. Of course some people would still consider and treat you male if they know your sex (like borderline who believes that sex and gender seem to be rigid). But theoretically and in many cases both would change .

For your examples. Yes, your gender identity wouldn't change in the example you gave, and the first example your gender role would.

[NYU2012]

(Original post by Borderline)
In response to point one: I am stating my belief. Who are you to question my right to an opinion? When I am clearly stating it is not a fact.
And don't be ridiculous. Just because somebody feels Something does not make it a fact. That would make every religion on the planet correct, every moral opinion the right one, etc. etc.

You very clearly misunderstand.

The transsexual feels as though they were born in the wrong sexed body. How they feel, their mental state, is a fact. They are, in fact, having that particular mental state. They do feel that they were born in the wrong body, and their feeling as much is a fact.

[blu tack]

(Original post by Borderline)
Then you cannot read. My constant reminders that this is merely what "I believe" have clearly been ignored by you as they do not fit the opinion you wish to have of me. And again, a person's feelings do not dictate the truth - so you cannot use that as a reason to claim your opinion is much more meaningful than mine.

You can have your opinion all you want, but I'll stand by the fact that it's a douchetastic one. And extremely rude to say that what people believe and feel is wrong, especially when you have no experience in the area.

And FYI science is much more on my side than yours, so yeah I'm gonna say my opinion is more valid.

[blu tack]

(Original post by NYU2012)
To clarify:

Gender is what your social role is; what feminine, masculine, or other qualities you may have; whether you identify as a man, woman or other; how you behave; what social role you believe you fill; and how society perceives you

Sex is whether you are male or female; what genitalia you have.

One can change their gender without any type of surgery; one can only change their sex through surgery.

If I have male genitalia, but identify my gender as being a woman, then I am woman, regardless of how society may perceive me (at least in every case we need concern ourselves with for purposes here)

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
haha this is where gender gets kinda complicated. So you are right it is both a social construct and a social role/identity. However, theoretically you change your identity and then change your social behaviors so as to be seen as the gender you identify as. For example you can be biologically male, but wish to be seen as a woman. In order to do this, you act more 'feminine' and do more 'womanly' things, ie wearing dresses, shaving legs, putting on makeup, etc. This would lead your social role (how you are treated and seen) to be more like a woman. Of course some people would still consider and treat you male if they know your sex (like borderline who believes that sex and gender seem to be rigid). But theoretically and in many cases both would change .

For your examples. Yes, your gender identity wouldn't change in the example you gave, and the first example your gender role would.

The thing is most of the trans* people I know would say their gender hasn't changed, only their outward expression of it as they started their transition. So this is where my confusion is stemming from.

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by blu tack)
The thing is most of the trans* people I know would say their gender hasn't changed, only their outward expression of it as they started their transition. So this is where my confusion is stemming from.

Well that would be because they probably think they have always felt as the gender they are starting to express. So their gender identity (what you say is internal) would not have changed. But their gender expression/role has.

[RandZul'Zorander]

(Original post by Borderline)
Then you cannot read. My constant reminders that this is merely what "I believe" have clearly been ignored by you as they do not fit the opinion you wish to have of me. And again, a person's feelings do not dictate the truth - so you cannot use that as a reason to claim your opinion is much more meaningful than mine.

Seeing as gender is an identity...which is based on what you feel...how they feel would in fact reflect the truth. And while none of us are saying you don't have the right to your opinion, we are merely saying that your opinion is factually incorrect and not backed by evidence.

[NYU2012]

(Original post by blu tack)
The thing is most of the trans* people I know would say their gender hasn't changed, only their outward expression of it as they started their transition. So this is where my confusion is stemming from.

They believe they have always been the same gender, their gender identity, let us call it X, has remained the same throughout their lives.

Their expression of X may have changed to more closely reflect their identification with X.

I'm not sure if you mean transgender or transsexual, so I'll provide examples of both.

John was born as a male and therefore his parents, upon his birth, assigned him the gender of a man. At around age 15, John changes his gender and becomes Mary, and identifies as a woman and expresses her gender as such.

John's internalized gender identity may have been constant this whole time, but how John, now Mary, expressed his or her gender changed over time.

Michelle was born as a female, but has always felt that she should have been born as a male. At age 25, 'Michelle has a sex reassignment surgery and becomes Fred. Fred's gender identity may have always been more masculine in nature and has been the same throughout his life, even when his outward expression of his gender, while he was Michelle, was more feminine.

[Borderline]

Some of you here are so rude and closed minded. I imagine you think that you are all very open minded - but you are in fact wrong. I have my opinion, but concede that it may quite possibly be wrong. Some of you, however, take your own beliefs and take into upon yourself to dictate them as facts. I respect other people's beliefs, but clearly you do not.
Some of you here seem to have an attitude of "I am transgender, you are not. Therefore anything you say is completely worthless, incorrect and "douchetastic" in comparison to my infinite knowledge. Your opinion is wrong, regardless of no solid proof proving either theory." And this is how you behave to somebody that had tried to e respectful and diplomatic? Disgusting.

And I can also tell you that my "douche-tastic" opinion is very common in my experience - and I tend to move in quite liberal circles.

You might have more chance making people come around to your way of thinking if you (in reference to some of the commenters) are less superior, rude, and think more evenly.