3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.
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3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18670175
They should never have been there in the first place, RIP.Afghan policeman kills three British soldiers
Major Andy Cox said the loss would be felt deeply across the Helmand Task Force.
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UK troops in Afghanistan
Military deaths in Afghanistan
British forces at the sharp end
British servicemen voice fears
A family of Afghanistan's fallen
Three British soldiers have been killed by a policeman in southern Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.
Two served with the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and one with the Royal Corps of Signals. Next of kin have been told.
The MoD said the soldiers were shot and fatally wounded on Sunday as they left a checkpoint in Helmand province. The gunman was injured and later detained.
More than 20 foreign personnel have been killed in rogue shootings in Afghanistan this year.
The soldiers were part of a Nato-led Isaf force who have been training Afghan counterparts ahead of a handover of security responsibility by 2014.
The shooting happened at Checkpoint Kamparack Pul in Nahr-e-Saraj, where the soldiers were attending a meeting of elders.
They were shot as they were leaving the checkpoint.
Prime Minister David Cameron said he was "deeply saddened by the appalling news".
"This tragic incident again demonstrates the very real risks that our brave soldiers face every day. We will do everything possible to find out how this happened, and learn any lessons for the future," he said in a statement.
Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said all thoughts were with the families of dead men.
"They gave their lives protecting Britain's national security, helping to make sure that Afghanistan never again becomes a haven for international terrorism," he said.
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Green on blue deaths
So far this year there have been 26 "green-on-blue" deaths - mostly Americans
There were 35 such deaths during 2011
The attacks have claimed the lives of 14 British service personnel since 2009
About 130,000 coalition troops are fighting alongside 350,000 Afghan security personnel against the Taliban-led insurgency
However, he signalled that the killings would not prompt an overall change of strategy.
The defence secretary said: "Every day, tens of thousands of coalition forces, including UK personnel, live and work successfully with their Afghan counterparts to build an Afghan police force and Army which can take the lead for their own security by the end of 2014.
"That process will continue, and though deeply tragic, yesterday's incident and attacks like it will not derail the mission or distract us from the task in hand."
Those sentiments were echoed by General Sir David Richards, Chief of the Defence Staff, who said: "Generally, there remains a high level of trust between the Afghan forces and their British counterparts with whom they work and live every day.
"Every time I visit Afghanistan and I am struck by the progress we are making alongside the Afghans in building a country increasingly able to stand on its own two feet. Attacks like this will not stop us from moving forward."
But Mark Cann, spokesman for the British Forces Foundation charity, said soldiers were worried about how Afghan colleagues, particularly police, were vetted.
"There is deep concern about the people they're working with and, and looking also to hand over authority to. Generally though what I hear is, is a very high level of regard for those they have worked with operationally - more with the military than the police," he said.
It comes after Maj Ian Lawrence, spokesman for Task Force Helmand, announced the deaths in a statement, saying: "Their loss will be felt deeply across the task force. However, that will be nothing compared with the grief experienced by their families at home.
The BBC's Caroline Wyatt said the attacks are a bitter blow for UK forces in Helmand
"Our thoughts and prayers are with them at this extremely difficult time."
BBC defence correspondent Caroline Wyatt says that, despite "green on blue" attacks, background checks are carried out on Afghan troops and police in a bid to ensure that people are not sympathetic to insurgent factions.
In a statement on Sunday, Isaf said: "An individual wearing an Afghan National Civil Order Police uniform turned his weapon against International Security Assistance Force service members in southern Afghanistan today, killing three service members."
The attack appears to be the latest in a string of flashpoints in which members of the Afghan security or police forces have opened fire on international allies.
The latest deaths mean a total of 26 Isaf personnel have been killed so far this year, compared with 35 for the whole of 2011.
A total of 14 British troops have been killed in the past three years in these attacks.
L/Cpl Lee Thomas Davies, 27, from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, and Cpl Brent John McCarthy, 25, of the Royal Air Force, were shot dead at a patrol base in the Lashkar Gar district of Helmand Province by members of the Afghan police force in May.
Growing resentment
They had been providing security for a meeting with local officials when two people wearing Afghan police uniforms opened fire.
And a rogue Afghan soldier shot dead Sgt Luke Taylor, 33, of the Royal Marines, and L/Cpl Michael Foley, 25, of the Adjutant General's Corps, at the entrance to the UK headquarters in Lashkar Gar, Helmand Province, in March.
The Taliban claimed responsibility after five British soldiers were killed by a rogue Afghan policeman in November 2009.
The gunman opened fire on the men in a military compound in Nad e-Ali before fleeing.
In February, public opinion against the foreign forces in Afghanistan was inflamed by revelations that US troops burned copies of the Koran at a base in Afghanistan - reportedly by accident.
The shooting of 16 Afghans by a US soldier in March has also created resentment. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Most civilians are killed by the Taliban in deliberate attacks on them actually. These would go on regardless of our troops being there or not.(Original post by LegitMan)
Who cares? A lot more civilians die due to these troops' presence -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.This is wrong. Whilst reports say the majority of causalities are caused by insurgents (not just the Taliban), there is nothing to suggest they are any more deliberate (for the most part) than the attacks on civilians by military forces. The majority of fatalities are from IED and suicide attacks, which target foreign and afghan forces, not civilians directly. We are definitely not seeing targeted civilian bloodshed on the scale of Iraq, that's for sure. For the most part, the killings are a result of shoddy tactics and lack of precise weaponry. To suggest these would go on regardless of the troop present is also erroneous given that these attacks target foreign forces, and the Afghan government for supporting them.(Original post by Aj12)
Most civilians are killed by the Taliban in deliberate attacks on them actually. These would go on regardless of our troops being there or not.Last edited by nosaer; 02-07-2012 at 14:35. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Well shall we start with the soldiers families, friends, colleagues and work our way up...(Original post by LegitMan)
Who cares? A lot more civilians die due to these troops' presence -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Plenty of the attacks are deliberate attacks on civilians:(Original post by nosaer)
This is wrong. Whilst reports say the majority of causalities are caused by insurgents (not just the Taliban), there is nothing to suggest they are any more deliberate (for the most part) than the attacks on civilians by military forces. The majority of fatalities are from IED and suicide attacks, which target foreign and afghan forces, not civilians directly. We are definitely not seeing targeted civilian bloodshed on the scale of Iraq, that's for sure. For the most part, the killings are a result of shoddy tactics and lack of precise weaponry. To suggest these would go on regardless of the troop present is also erroneous given that these attacks target foreign forces, and the Afghan government for supporting them.
Anti-Government Elements increased their use of IEDs and suicide attacks against obvious civilian targets. In incidents where intended targets appeared to be military, those responsible for placing or detonating IEDs showed no regard for the presence of civilians and no evidence of distinguishing between civilian and military targets in violation of the international humanitarian law principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality. Anti-Government Elements also deliberately targeted and killed civilians not taking a direct part in hostilities, mainly individuals who supported, or were perceived as supporting the Government of Afghanistan or international military forces"
23% of civilian deaths are from executions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ies-statistics
These attacks on the Afghan government and those that support it would go on regardless of our troops being there or not. We would also see increases in civilian deaths as the Taliban apply their warped ideology.Last edited by Aj12; 02-07-2012 at 15:34. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Ignorant, unsympathetic ****(Original post by LegitMan)
Who cares? A lot more civilians die due to these troops' presence -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Like I said, the majority of deaths are from IEDs and suicide bombings. I'm not denying there are incidents of executions, and these include "civilians" as provincial governors and chiefs who the insurgency see as part of the government complex, but the fact remains the majority are killed by IEDs and suicide bombs, which nearly also have a military target. Civilians are often caught up in these attacks. So again, whilst you could say using such tactics have little regard for civilian safety, but it's little different from airstrikes on villages that take collateral damage along with the intended target or the shooting of civilian cars that fail to understand their instructions. The deaths in both cases are as a result of the tactics and circumstances employed. The outright murder of civilians is not the intention in neither (for the most part).(Original post by Aj12)
Plenty of the attacks are deliberate attacks on civilians:
Anti-Government Elements increased their use of IEDs and suicide attacks against obvious civilian targets. In incidents where intended targets appeared to be military, those responsible for placing or detonating IEDs showed no regard for the presence of civilians and no evidence of distinguishing between civilian and military targets in violation of the international humanitarian law principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality. Anti-Government Elements also deliberately targeted and killed civilians not taking a direct part in hostilities, mainly individuals who supported, or were perceived as supporting the Government of Afghanistan or international military forces"
23% of civilian deaths are from executions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ies-statistics
These attacks on the Afghan government and those that support it would go on regardless of our troops being there or not. We would also see increases in civilian deaths as the Taliban apply their warped ideology.
If foreign troops leave, the Taliban will either enter peace talks like they've promised, or flatten the government within a short space of time as they've done before. In either case, judging by past events, the civilian fatalities would drop dramatically after the initial conflict and by no-where near as protracted or bloody as the current war. Afghanistan was in civil war before 9/11 - but we didn't hear of masses of civilian casualties because the war was mostly fought on frontlines rather than cities. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.I've done a lot of reading of books about Afgan and seen a lot of documentaries. From what I can see is one of the biggest problems is Afgan society (if you can call it that) doesn't work like ours. Loyalties lie in different places, local allegiances, tribal allegiances and trade (drug or otherwise) are far greater than the loyalty to Afghanistan as a geographical location. Hamid Karzai is often referred to as the mayor of Kabul, simply because that is pretty much as far as his influence spreads. Its very hard to quell an insurgency with just Afghan's from all over the place, you need local Afghan's who actually have power in the local areas. Until recently a huge amount of recruitment for the problems in the South came from the North. The problem with using people with influence in the South is most of these, as necessity dictates, have some kind of relationship with the Taliban or have vulnerable family connection in their area of operation.
I don't think the Afghan security forces can be trusted for the most part, by us or the people to be honest and just. For the most part I don't think they are committed enough, nor do they receive enough direction from a strong enough leadership, enough to withstand any real uprising once we leave. One fierce assault and they will scatter region after region. I just don't think Afghanistan is culturally ready for the kind of society we are trying to bring. They are still stuck in a short term tribal mentality, trying to unite them under 1 single Afghan banner just won't work. That united front will be needed if they are to aid in the goal of stopping there being a launch pad for terrorism is to work. The Taliban and their allies all unite under one banner, as hypocritical as that is.
Either way I have zero faith that the Gov and Forces when we leave will make it to 2020. Its a cold and harsh reality, but the drone have been amazingly effective in our number 1 goal which was stopping terrorist cells. We have tried twice now to install regime change and bring about a competent Government, and pretty much failed twice. As we have seen in Pakistan, the use of intelligence cells, combined with Special Forces operations and drone strikes are far more effective and far cheaper than regime change and long term occupation. Its also far less devastating on the civilian population than using air power in built up areas as was used in Iraq and Afghan when supporting ground ops.
My view of the problems in the Middle East is we need to do what has to be done to ensure the safety of our nations. We can work with governments, but ultimately its their job to get their house in order, and in no way should their failure to do so affect us in protecting ourselves. We should protect ourselves first and collaborate second. As such I have no qualms with drone strikes as currently they are doing that in areas Pakistan seems to have no control. I question the effectiveness having troops on the ground in whatever numbers relative to the drones in terms of results or cost, both human and financial. Our goal of winning hearts and minds and installing security for the people isn't looking good even 10 years on. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.If the troops withdrew the war would continue nd civilian casualties would increase.(Original post by LegitMan)
Who cares? A lot more civilians die due to these troops' presence -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.To be honest I don't even believe that his family were killed.(Original post by Shabalala)
Were your Family were in the minority and supported the Taliban? -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Many of these soldiers defect to the Taliban.
Last edited by Perseveranze; 02-07-2012 at 23:12. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Who cares? How can you be so callous about the tragic loss of life and, then, justify it by pointing at other deaths? What makes the death of a civilian more or less important?(Original post by LegitMan)
Who cares? A lot more civilians die due to these troops' presence
I think it's time you turned your computer off and stepped outside. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.I doubt the soldiers families and friends are on thestudentroom though.(Original post by cl_steele)
Well shall we start with the soldiers families, friends, colleagues and work our way up... -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.Well, they signed up to be the slaves of their warmongering leaders, you know who I have least respect for? the people who think they're going to bring peace in this world by FIGHTING, don't you see the irony in all this?(Original post by Formerly Helpful_C)
Who cares? How can you be so callous about the tragic loss of life and, then, justify it by pointing at other deaths? What makes the death of a civilian more or less important?
I think it's time you turned your computer off and stepped outside. -
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Re: 3 British soldiers shot dead by Afghan gun man.I agree with you.(Original post by ANIGAV)
Well, they signed up to be the slaves of their warmongering leaders, you know who I have least respect for? the people who think they're going to bring peace in this world by FIGHTING, don't you see the irony in all this?
If men are signing up to take part in a war, their close associates and others alike, should hope for the best, yet embrace the ramifications of their decision to embark on such a perilous conquest.
Dying is a part of war. It was never gonna be a picnic to begin with, which is why I find it hard to have sympathy - especially since they signed up for it. For the most part, they probably had no idea why they were taking part in it to begin with.
Rest in Peace... Yadda... Yadda... Yadda...
