[prog2djent]

(Original post by Darth Vader.)
Funny thing research, you can always find studies suggesting something different:



Therefore 75% have respect for homosexuals and find them at the very least acceptable? Certainly not the extreme opinion of it being wrong and illegal, and it very much leans away from the general perception of the religion being overly homophobic amongst the younger generations.

Are you trying to compare that with the very lengthy study I presented?

Which doesn't even offer parents opinions, of compare with the non-muslim population.

Someone else that can't admit that compared to secularists, agnostic, atheists or indiginous Brits, more Muslims are Bigots?

[prog2djent]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
no . . . muslims youths are just as conservative as their parents when it comes to issues to do with homosexuality or marrying outside of the religion (or sometimes even race/tribe)

Wow, you are edging closer to it now.

Care to read the whole study yet.

Because it suggests muslim youths are MORE conservative then their parents when it comes to issues to do with homosexuality or marrying outside of the religion.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
I think islam will continue as it it is at the moment - ie will remain conservative and ghettoised as it is at the moment in the poorest areas, and more liberalised in the 3rd and 4th generations of muslims and the more affluent

by this do you mean "less muslim" (i.e. relaxed about dietary habits, social norms etc)?

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by prog2djent)
Wow, you are edging closer to it now.

Care to read the whole study yet.

Because it suggests muslim youths are MORE conservative then their parents when it comes to issues to do with homosexuality or marrying outside of the religion.

well yes, if the parents aren't muslims or practising muslims then this may well be the case, but if both parents and children are both muslims and practising, then they would be both conservative on such issues (as there is no grey area when it comes to issues of homosexuality or marriage - of muslim women especially)

[Khalak]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
an 'exodus' will only come if far right governments come into power across europe . . . .don't see that happening . . . . british muslims will have less and less ties to their ancestral home as generations pass. Why on earth would they want to move to a corrupt hellhole like pakistan?

Because they have ancestoral lands their which according to the inheritance law in Pakistan they will have rights to, they will have ancestoral homes there again which they will have rights to under the inheritance law and contrary to your assumption, British Pakistani's of old and new generations make reguilar trips to their homeland, often on an annual basis.

And maybe they would go to a corrupt country like Pakistan and live with fellow Muslims where they do not have to live in hostile conditions, yes economically it may be a hell hole but atleast they won't be dead.

I have my Pakistani passport and ID ready, I never know when I may need it.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Khalak)
Because they have ancestoral lands their which according to the inheritance law in Pakistan they will have rights to, they will have ancestoral homes there again which they will have rights to under the inheritance law and contrary to your assumption, British Pakistani's of old and new generations make reguilar trips to their homeland, often on an annual basis.

And maybe they would go to a corrupt country like Pakistan and live with fellow Muslims where they do not have to live in hostile conditions, yes economically it may be a hell hole but atleast they won't be dead.

I have my Pakistani passport and ID ready, I never know when I may need it.

I quite sure british pakistanis feel differently.. especially with 3rd and 4th generation british pakistanis. My gf is of pakistani origin and she would never want to live there. Holidays are nice, but not to live there forever (then again her family are pretty wealthy so they live a pretty sheltered western lifestyle in pakistan)..

There is nothing to fear for british pakistanis in the UK.... problems would only arise if right wing governments came into power and they'd most likely kick everyone out.

[Politricks]

As long as young Muslims feel that they're being isolated and discriminated against just for being Muslim, I don't see the Muslim population as a whole becoming more liberal any time soon.

[de_monies]

(Original post by Politricks)
As long as young Muslims feel that they're being isolated and discriminated against just for being Muslim, I don't see the Muslim population as a whole becoming more liberal any time soon.

This. Notice how pre 1930, the ghettos of the UK were filled with Jewish people. The Jews segregated themselves, because society was actively discriminating against them, and they were actually isolated. This is not the case with Muslims today, but the feelings are there.

Post WW2, society began to treat Jews better and what happened? Jews moved out of the ghettos and became much more integrated in society

Integration can never occur, if one or many groups feel that they are being isolated. That sort of attitude only leads to more isolation, and more segregation, despite ironically being integrated at the same time

In another thread, which was deleted, I called Bradford "integrated, but segregated"

[Khalak]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
I quite sure british pakistanis feel differently.. especially with 3rd and 4th generation british pakistanis. My gf is of pakistani origin and she would never want to live there. Holidays are nice, but not to live there forever (then again her family are pretty wealthy so they live a pretty sheltered western lifestyle in pakistan)..

There is nothing to fear for british pakistanis in the UK.... problems would only arise if right wing governments came into power and they'd most likely kick everyone out.

When circumstances change so will opinions, it can make those flying high in teh sky fall face flat back to the ground.

Atm no there isn't much to fear but you may not have noticed, but I have, in the last 11 years since 9/11 a lot has changed, enough of a change to warrant a state of alert, for now atleast.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Khalak)
When circumstances change so will opinions, it can make those flying high in teh sky fall face flat back to the ground.

Atm no there isn't much to fear but you may not have noticed, but I have, in the last 11 years since 9/11 a lot has changed, enough of a change to warrant a state of alert, for now atleast.

only in unstable places like pakistan.... britain is safe from far-right parties getting into power and kicking out pakistanis and other musilms/non-whites..

[de_monies]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
only in unstable places like pakistan.... britain is safe from far-right parties getting into power and kicking out pakistanis and other musilms/non-whites..

Whilst we're not in any severe economic downturn, that is one major thing which can make a country "unstable" and doesn't make your country safe at all from far right parties. Notice how the "Golden Dawn" party in Greece is doing really well?

Notice how some other European states actually have far right politicians in government, but just lack enough of them to actually enact their policies?

Notice how the BNP's rise and fall, rises and falls with economic downturn and economic "success" - ?

I mean, according to the BNP, I'm not even British,(and I know I sound arrogant here, I dont meant to), when I know more about British history and culture/customs/comedy than your average BNP voter - the same would go for pretty much every non BNP voter

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/who-briti...provide-answer

EDIT: On a side note, the BNP have no option for donating as a student (not that I would) - probably because they know that no student will support them

[noisy06]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
only in unstable places like pakistan.... britain is safe from far-right parties getting into power and kicking out pakistanis and other musilms/non-whites..

Khalak has a first generation Muslim mentality, or have been heavily influenced by them. The reality is the bulk of the younger Muslim generation don't ever think they'll ever leave Europe, they can't stand places like Pakistan and would only go there for a holiday. They wouldn't touch Africa or Asia with a ten foot pole.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
by this do you mean "less muslim" (i.e. relaxed about dietary habits, social norms etc)?

Well it wouldnt be 'less muslim' it would be modern muslim

Muslims today are already 'less muslim' than muslims were 200 years ago and so on, by disregarding certain islamic teachings that arntt convenient to them anymore (although to the lay person it may not seem so)

later generations of muslims here will, change in their practices to suit their envrionment ( while still maintaning the moniker of 'muslim') Have you ever seen a muslim teenager that doesnt use an ipod/mp3?

[de_monies]

(Original post by noisy06)
Khalak has a first generation Muslim mentality, or have been heavily influenced by them. The reality is the bulk of the younger Muslim generation don't ever think they'll ever leave Europe, they can't stand places like Pakistan and would only go there for a holiday. They wouldn't touch Africa or Asia with a ten foot pole.

Realistically, if Britain repeated history and became like Germany in WW2, but with Muslims instead of Jews, I think I'd prefer to go to the UAE or Turkey, before I go to Pakistan

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by de_monies)
Whilst we're not in any severe economic downturn, that is one major thing which can make a country "unstable" and doesn't make your country safe at all from far right parties. Notice how the "Golden Dawn" party in Greece is doing really well?

Notice how some other European states actually have far right politicians in government, but just lack enough of them to actually enact their policies?

Notice how the BNP's rise and fall, rises and falls with economic downturn and economic "success" - ?

I mean, according to the BNP, I'm not even British,(and I know I sound arrogant here, I dont meant to), when I know more about British history and culture/customs/comedy than your average BNP voter - the same would go for pretty much every non BNP voter

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/who-briti...provide-answer

so much so that they were elected to rule greece? no. protest votes like we saw in britain? most likely.

i don't know what sort of economic crisis we would have to have to get a far right party elected into power, but my point to the pakistani poster was that britain is not in danger of falling to the far-right and that he doesn't really have to have that level of fear.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by de_monies)
This. Notice how pre 1930, the ghettos of the UK were filled with Jewish people. The Jews segregated themselves, because society was actively discriminating against them, and they were actually isolated. This is not the case with Muslims today, but the feelings are there.

Post WW2, society began to treat Jews better and what happened? Jews moved out of the ghettos and became much more integrated in society

Integration can never occur, if one or many groups feel that they are being isolated. That sort of attitude only leads to more isolation, and more segregation, despite ironically being integrated at the same time

In another thread, which was deleted, I called Bradford "integrated, but segregated"

the jews, chinese, koreans, indians, sri lankans etc etc all have moved out of the ghettoised mentaluty and most are highly successful academically and economically (in somecases more so than indigenous) But muslims immigrants of the same generations are still a few decades behind - it is ignorance to deny it doenst have something to do with the conservative elements in islam. This i doubt will change a great deal, but there will be some that break away form tradiontal islam and embrace western values more, and become more integrated as a result - possibly not you , but possibly your children

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Well it wouldnt be 'less muslim' it would be modern muslim

Muslims today are already 'less muslim' than muslims were 200 years ago and so on, by disregarding certain islamic teachings that arntt convenient to them anymore (although to the lay person it may not seem so)

later generations of muslims here will, change in their practices to suit their envrionment ( while still maintaning the moniker of 'muslim') Have you ever seen a muslim teenager that doesnt use an ipod/mp3?

what you describe is modernisation (not exaclty becoming 'less muslim') and living in the modern world where culture has changed . . . . muslims using ipods would be modern muslims, whereas muslim teens having the odd drink now and again would be 'less muslim'

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
the jews, chinese, koreans, indians, sri lankans etc etc all have moved out of the ghettoised mentaluty and most are highly successful academically and economically (in somecases more so than indigenous) But muslims immigrants of the same generations are still a few decades behind - it is ignorance to deny it doenst have something to do with the conservative elements in islam. This i doubt will change a great deal, but there will be some that break away form tradiontal islam and embrace western values more, and become more integrated as a result - possibly not you , but possibly your children

certainly not in parts of america or australia. Its not to do with islam itself but rather the economic/social status various immigrants/ethnic communities find themselves in a country. Indian musilms may well do better than pakistani muslims etc..

[Khalak]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
only in unstable places like pakistan.... britain is safe from far-right parties getting into power and kicking out pakistanis and other musilms/non-whites..

The lessons from history are far too great to simply ignore, regardless of whether it is west end london or timbuktu.

Circumstances change and people change, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse, enemy can become friend and friend becomes enemy.

You see far right parties do not have to come to power, infact it won't have to come to that, its the background stuff, the background and behind the scene view on Muslims is changing in this country, you might not know, or you might not admit it, ibut t is changing significanlty and not for the better.

They said BNP would not win a single parliament seat, it won three in the europeran elections not long ago.

They said no massacre comparable to WW2 would occur in Europe ever again, Yugoslavia proved them wrong.

BNP and the EDL are more popular today than they have ever been, and the BNP has more members today that it has ever had.

You see economic conditions can even change those with the coolest of heads with the calmest of demeanor and I will tell you this from a personal experience.

Nothing is set in stone, not even here in Britain.

[de_monies]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
so much so that they were elected to rule greece? no. protest votes like we saw in britain? most likely.

i don't know what sort of economic crisis we would have to have to get a far right party elected into power, but my point to the pakistani poster was that britain is not in danger of falling to the far-right and that he doesn't really have to have that level of fear.

Currently, I have no fear for living in the UK. Yes, the country has became more socially and economically right wing since 2008, but yes the country is still democratic.

No one envisioned Hitler in to power in Germany. The Germans would have thought the exact same as you, say pre WW1, and perhaps even a bit pre WW2.

All it really takes is some major depression, enough propaganda, and some crackpot politicians

This sounds incredibly similar

(Original post by Goering)
Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany.
That is understood.

(Original post by Goering)
But it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along to fight a war, ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."