[noisy06]

(Original post by de_monies)
Realistically, if Britain repeated history and became like Germany in WW2, but with Muslims instead of Jews, I think I'd prefer to go to the UAE or Turkey, before I go to Pakistan

I'd definitely go to the Arabian Peninsula or North Africa. Those are probably the safest places. If you go too far east or too far west of those countries there's always a risk.

[de_monies]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
the jews, chinese, koreans, indians, sri lankans etc etc all have moved out of the ghettoised mentaluty and most are highly successful academically and economically[/B] (in somecases more so than indigenous) But muslims immigrants of the same generations are still a few decades behind - it is ignorance to deny it doenst have something to do with the conservative elements in islam. This i doubt will change a great deal, but there will be some that break away form tradiontal islam and embrace western values more, and become more integrated as a result - possibly not you , but possibly your children

Oh how patronising I consider myself "integrated" So I don't drink, and I don't eat haram meat, and I might do other things slightly differently, yet I know of Atheists/Christians etc... who'll do the exact same things as me

Also, I know of many Pakistani Muslims that go to university. Indians have been here a bit longer than Pakistanis and both groups specialised originally in the same industries. Both groups are moving in the middle classes. Indians will obviously get there first, due to the fact that well, as a group there's been more generations of British Indians than British Pakistanis

Also, interesting of you to imply that to be Chinese, Indian, Korean or Sri Lankan, you can't also be Muslim at the same time.

On another note, I've obviously been academic enough to go in to further education, though don't let logic get in the way of your generalisations

[Khalak]

(Original post by noisy06)
I'd definitely go to the Arabian Peninsula or North Africa. Those are probably the safest places. If you go too far east or too far west of those countries there's always a risk.

You think Pakistan is bad and corrupted (which it is no dount), well if you ever go to north africa or the arabian peninsula, you will see corruption on a whole new level.

Even if it is a flawed democracy, at least Pakistan is a democracy unlike all other muslim states bar maybe Iran which is somewhat limited democracy.

[de_monies]

(Original post by noisy06)
I'd definitely go to the Arabian Peninsula or North Africa. Those are probably the safest places. If you go too far east or too far west of those countries there's always a risk.

I can't really see North Africa being safer than Turkey?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
what you describe is modernisation (not exaclty becoming 'less muslim') and living in the modern world where culture has changed . . . . muslims using ipods would be modern muslims, whereas muslim teens having the odd drink now and again would be 'less muslim'

No , if you understood islam, you would know listening to music on an ipod is unislamic - therefore, in your words current muslims have already become 'less muslim'

[A100whoo]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)

I personally believe that as generations pass, islam and muslims in the UK will become less conservative and rigid in their beliefs and values.

Definitely I can see it my parents who came to this country in the 70's. Over the years their views are becoming less strict on certain things.

E.g. 10 years ago they were adamant that the best thing for me to do is marrying a cousin from Pakistan.

Over the last few years they're like 'hmm...some british asian boys are ok too'

Now my mum is telling me to actively look for boys at uni (as long as their muslim), ha i never though i'd see the day!

Loads of other things too for a example a lot more british asain girls wear western clothing than they did 20 years ago, because their parents generation are more open to it...

Things are definitely changing - be it slowly but im grateful there is some modernising going on at all!

[Dhaal_Chawal]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
the jews, chinese, koreans, indians, sri lankans etc etc all have moved out of the ghettoised mentaluty and most are highly successful academically and economically (in somecases more so than indigenous) But muslims immigrants of the same generations are still a few decades behind - it is ignorance to deny it doenst have something to do with the conservative elements in islam. This i doubt will change a great deal, but there will be some that break away form tradiontal islam and embrace western values more, and become more integrated as a result - possibly not you , but possibly your children

In the USA pakistanis and muslims in general are very successful (see this) however in the UK this isn't the case because most pakistanis came with zero education and qualifications to work in the factories, which soon went bust. So it's not necessarily their fault. However, practices like marrying a stranger from abroad who also has no qualifications don't help either.

[noisy06]

(Original post by Khalak)
You think Pakistan is bad and corrupted (which it is no dount), well if you ever go to north africa or the arabian peninsula, you will see corruption on a whole new level.

Even if it is a flawed democracy, at least Pakistan is a democracy unlike all other muslim states bar maybe Iran which is somewhat limited democracy.

That's the problem with Pakistan though. It's pretty hypocritical as a country and way too liberalised to ever be an effective muslim country in my opinion. It tries to be Western and Islamic at the same time and it gets horribly all wrong. At least other countries are being upfront about their values.

Edit: Don't even talk about Iran.

[letsbehonest]

Very religious - probably build mosques and their own communities, marry a muslim, send kids to islamic skl, teach their kids to hate homosexuals

Semi religious - try to conform to society, live in a fairly decent area, just cause trouble when another pic of prophet is drawn, teach their kids that homosexuality is wrong for them but to be tolerant and accepting. some of these might become more religious

Not religious - conform to society, live up to date, perhaps even marry outside religion ..


Just guessing

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
certainly not in parts of america or australia. Its not to do with islam itself but rather the economic/social status various immigrants/ethnic communities find themselves in a country. Indian musilms may well do better than pakistani muslims etc..

i dont know if there are any indian muslims in this country - i have never met any, iwould guess the numbers are so negligible your assumuption would be worthless. But in india, muslims generally from large sections of the poorest populations too, bombay slums for instance.

In america chinese, koreans students regularly surpass all other ethnic groups - they may not be in the upper echelons of economic society, but they will in a few generations on that basis. obviously there are many high profile millionaires of jewish,indian and european origin in the USA.

[noisy06]

(Original post by de_monies)
I can't really see North Africa being safer than Turkey?

Turkey is safe, but not for religious purposes, that's the problem. Of course it's likely to change in the future because conservative Islam is becoming more tolerant over there now.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dhaal_Chawal)
In the USA pakistanis and muslims in general are very successful (see this) however in the UK this isn't the case because most pakistanis came with zero education and qualifications to work in the factories, which soon went bust. So it's not necessarily their fault. However, practices like marrying a stranger from abroad who also has no qualifications don't help either.

According to your article p15 showed pakistani families in the USA had one of the lowest average household incomes out of all 'asian' and 'east asian' ethncities.
And generally tin the US immigration is much tougher and requires a high levle of education to get in, so most recent legal forgein immigrants from asia will be graduates or grad students.

The UK is a better example becuase for 40 years there were much less restrictions ofr immigrations, for largely all commonwealth countries, so it perfectly valid to say that jews, chinese etc all came with no recognised qualifications either.

[Ham22]

They will become more liberal or basically the **** is going to hit the fan.

[prog2djent]

(Original post by de_monies)
In another thread, which was deleted, I called Bradford "integrated, but segregated"

Have you ever been to Bradford? Mate.

[Dhaal_Chawal]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
According to your article p15 showed pakistani families in the USA had one of the lowest average household incomes out of all 'asian' and 'east asian' ethncities.
And generally tin the US immigration is much tougher and requires a high levle of education to get in, so most recent legal forgein immigrants from asia will be graduates or grad students.

Accoring to that page it's higher than Filipino, Vietnamese, Korean, Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Thai and 'other Asian' so I'm not sure where you got 'one of the lowest' from The page also showed pakistanis have a higher percent of degrees than even Japanese and Chinese people.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
The UK is a better example becuase for 40 years there were much less restrictions ofr immigrations, for largely all commonwealth countries, so it perfectly valid to say that jews, chinese etc all came with no recognised qualifications either.

Jews have been here for ages. And though they are proportionately very rich, there are some ultra orthodox jewish communities that live in poverty here. Chinese people in the uk aren't that rich, but their kids do very well in school because their parents tend to be strict and are known to have an excellent work ethic.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by A100whoo)
Definitely I can see it my parents who came to this country in the 70's. Over the years their views are becoming less strict on certain things.

E.g. 10 years ago they were adamant that the best thing for me to do is marrying a cousin from Pakistan.

Over the last few years they're like 'hmm...some british asian boys are ok too'

Now my mum is telling me to actively look for boys at uni (as long as their muslim), ha i never though i'd see the day!

Loads of other things too for a example a lot more british asain girls wear western clothing than they did 20 years ago, because their parents generation are more open to it...

Things are definitely changing - be it slowly but im grateful there is some modernising going on at all!

Islam allows marriages between different races...........your family can't say no under racial preference you know in Islam if the guy is good and all

You should QMUL, someone actually set up a matrimonial page for the uni on Facebook

[S'Class]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
No , if you understood islam, you would know listening to music on an ipod is unislamic - therefore, in your words current muslims have already become 'less muslim'

I and a lot of my friends listen to the Quran on our phones. So it doesn't mean that they are always listening to music.

[Perseveranze]

Inshallah, become more practising.


Source: Pew Research

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Muslims in the United Kingdom are actively practicing their faith and are passing on their religious teachings to their children at much higher rates than other religions, a new study has found.

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Every religion has its true believers and its doubters, its pious and its pragmatists, but new evidence suggests that Muslims tend to be more committed to their faith than other believers.

Muslims also have a much greater tendency to say their religion motivates them to do good works, said the survey, released over the summer by Ipsos-Mori, a British research company that polls around the world.

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In the famous words of Umar(ra);

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“We were of the most disgraced of people, and Allah granted us honor with this Islam. Now, whenever we seek honor in other than that which Allah honored us with, Allah shall disgrace us (once again).” —‘Umar b. al-Khattaab(ra)

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[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by S'Class)
I and a lot of my friends listen to the Quran on our phones. So it doesn't mean that they are always listening to music.

i would doubts thats very common. most of the youth i would see are nodding ther head rhythmecally like they are listening to 50 cent, not quran.

you do realise more muslims under 25 use facebook daily than the quran?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dhaal_Chawal)
Accoring to that page it's higher than Filipino, Vietnamese, Korean, Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Thai and 'other Asian' so I'm not sure where you got 'one of the lowest' from The page also showed pakistanis have a higher percent of degrees than even Japanese and Chinese people.

Jews have been here for ages. And though they are proportionately very rich, there are some ultra orthodox jewish communities that live in poverty here. Chinese people in the uk aren't that rich, but their kids do very well in school because their parents tend to be strict and are known to have an excellent work ethic.

Err, no, fig 13 showing average median earnings of households showed pakistanis one of the lowest, lower than 'other asian' and the 'average category of 'asian'. Chinese, indian, japanese were much higher, as may be expected.
Hewsih people here have down well economically and socially due to there acamdemic perfomace generations before. chibese, sri lankan and india tend to rank highest inm odern day academic performance comparatively and they also integrate much better into society than the lower perfomring muslim immigrant communities.