[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Khalak)
The inevitable situation of going back to Pakistan will come, it might not be now or next year or even in 5 years, but it will happen eventually, I won't know you in 60 years time, but if you remeber, then remember this comment and look around you and say to yourself, how many Muslims are here in this country today compared to 60 years ago, you will find your answer then.

I cannot prove it to you, but its in the air, many young Pakiistanis will not see it this way, reasons being, they prob have no clue of the social or political situation or changes that are occuring in this country, nor do they have any clue about the lessons from history.

They are oblivious, but I'm not, I have seen some disturbing changes in the last 10 or so years, and not for the better. Changes which are subtle but changes which are setting teh foundations, once the foundations are layed is when most Muslims, esp Pakistanis will realise that their time here is up.

History has a funny way of repeating itself, its only when you might be on the wrong end do you see it coming. Which is prob why I se eit coming and you don't, I am aware and you are optimistic.

Possibly. Or possibly you are talking complete hogwash, when we read that british pakistanis going to pakistan are being kidnapped and ransomed by their ethnic brothers at record levels. Most pakistanis here even in the worst ghetto have a better life here than their older generation ever did in pakistan. And it has hardly imporved as a country since independance has it, it has plummetted down the toilet since islamic rule has run things.

[FreshPrincess1]

(Original post by Khalak)
The inevitable situation of going back to Pakistan will come, it might not be now or next year or even in 5 years, but it will happen eventually, I won't know you in 60 years time, but if you remeber, then remember this comment and look around you and say to yourself, how many Muslims are here in this country today compared to 60 years ago, you will find your answer then.

I cannot prove it to you, but its in the air, many young Pakiistanis will not see it this way, reasons being, they prob have no clue of the social or political situation or changes that are occuring in this country, nor do they have any clue about the lessons from history.

They are oblivious, but I'm not, I have seen some disturbing changes in the last 10 or so years, and not for the better. Changes which are subtle but changes which are setting teh foundations, once the foundations are layed is when most Muslims, esp Pakistanis will realise that their time here is up.

History has a funny way of repeating itself, its only when you might be on the wrong end do you see it coming. Which is prob why I se eit coming and you don't, I am aware and you are optimistic.

You say "back to Pakistan" as if we are physically from there? Yes our parents may be from there, yes I visit Pakistan a lot, but I am still primarily a British Muslim?

I cannot envisage the Muslim population shrinking. I see it growing.

You have your views and thoughts on what the future may hold but the truth is that neither you nor I can predict what God has already ordained. So I don't think you should be stating your personal view as truth/facts.
This is just my opinion.

Lakum dinukum waliyadin x


EDIT: I am not "optimistic". I am realistic.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by FreshPrincess1)
1. Yes the statistic is from the 2001 Census. I have reason to believe that it is probably an even higher number now, not lower.

2. Again, your 'studies' are worthless to myself and the hundreds of other Muslims I have met in my lifetime. Most of us have done, and will continue to do, well academically.

3. Chinese Muslims in the USA do exist. I am sure you have spent time studying, I am not disputing that, but you cannot use your personal and narrow experience of a few different schools to conjure up such generalisations...?

Thanks for your input though. But I wanted to clear up some of your misconceptions.

i dont deny there exceptions to every rule, but largley the studies done and statistics dont lie - why it is muslims do worse academically, economically and in regards to social integration i dont know - but we know that they do.

we also know muslims are satisitcally over represented in prison than most other groups - again we dont know why, but we know it is the case.

SO if you buck the trend, good for you, but typically muslims do not.
But int he future when islam in the west modernises and integrates better, maybe things will change.

[A100whoo]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
Islam allows marriages between different races...........your family can't say no under racial preference you know in Islam if the guy is good and all

You should QMUL, someone actually set up a matrimonial page for the uni on Facebook

lol i know but its the cultural thing as well, to my family they would be extremely embarrased if i married a non-asian even if he was a muslim

ahhhh, i went to the wrong uni! what an excellent idea!

[Khalak]

(Original post by MonkeyMan2009)
what you feel is different from what british pakistanis feel

What most feel and what will happen is different, most British Pakistani have no clue about trhe social and political changes occuring in the country and have been since 9/11, they do not know anything about the lessons of history, they think they are immune from such things, they aren't, things are changing, and not for the better. I'd say there was prob a period in the 90s prob from about 95 to 2000 when thinks were prob good, but things have changed and new foundations are being created.

[FreshPrincess1]

(Original post by A100whoo)
lol i know but its the cultural thing as well, to my family they would be extremely embarrased if i married a non-asian even if he was a muslim

ahhhh, i went to the wrong uni! what an excellent idea!

Vouching for QMUL! Lol

[Paladin777]

@ Indo-Chinese food

What do you mean by Islamic rule in Pakistan? Islam is a religion, Muslims are people. In Pakistan it was a series of civil and military generals who ruled the country, with lots of corruption and problems related to geo-politics (the conflict with India)

Saying Pakistan is having an Islamic rule is even more wrong that saying Britain is under "Christian Rule", since the Queen is the head of the official Church. (or it's even like saying the UK is a theocracy).

[Khalak]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Possibly. Or possibly you are talking complete hogwash, when we read that british pakistanis going to pakistan are being kidnapped and ransomed by their ethnic brothers at record levels. Most pakistanis here even in the worst ghetto have a better life here than their older generation ever did in pakistan. And it has hardly imporved as a country since independance has it, it has plummetted down the toilet since islamic rule has run things.

You don't get it do you, when it becomes a matter of life or death, even the slums of Pakistan seem like palaces.

Do you even know anything, the older generations esp thsoe that come from the AK area actually owned land and had farms, why they came here to live in a singkle bed rooms working 12 hour shifts in factories is beyond me.

[FreshPrincess1]

(Original post by Khalak)
What most feel and what will happen is different, most British Pakistani have no clue about trhe social and political changes occuring in the country and have been since 9/11, they do not know anything about the lessons of history, they think they are immune from such things, they aren't, things are changing, and not for the better. I'd say there was prob a period in the 90s prob from about 95 to 2000 when thinks were prob good, but things have changed and new foundations are being created.

What on earth are you basing this stupid assumption on? How can you claim what people know and do not know? No-one is saying things are not getting worse, but how exactly is running to Pakistan going to help this?

[Khalak]

(Original post by FreshPrincess1)
You say "back to Pakistan" as if we are physically from there? Yes our parents may be from there, yes I visit Pakistan a lot, but I am still primarily a British Muslim?

I cannot envisage the Muslim population shrinking. I see it growing.

You have your views and thoughts on what the future may hold but the truth is that neither you nor I can predict what God has already ordained. So I don't think you should be stating your personal view as truth/facts.
This is just my opinion.

Lakum dinukum waliyadin x


EDIT: I am not "optimistic". I am realistic.

British Muslims, nope you are seen as British Pakistani, a term that has come to be used regularly in the last 15 years or so. Pakistanis are never really viewed as British though, I mean you hear terms such as British Indian, or British African or British Chinese, but the term British Pakistani is so common, because whether you like this or not, you will always be seen as a Pakistani. The British infornt of Paksitani is just to be PC.

You have your views and that's fine, but just in case, have a Pakistani passport at hand, but when I said 'go back', I was actually referring to myself, sorry if it didn't seem that way but thats what I meant.

[Khalak]

(Original post by Khalak)
British Muslims, nope you are seen as British Pakistani, a term that has come to be used regularly in the last 15 years or so. Pakistanis are never really viewed as British though, I mean you don't hear terms such as British Indian, or British African or British Chinese, but the term British Pakistani is so common, because whether you like this or not, you will always be seen as a Pakistani. The British infornt of Paksitani is just to be PC.

You have your views and that's fine, but just in case, have a Pakistani passport at hand, but when I said 'go back', I was actually referring to myself, sorry if it didn't seem that way but thats what I meant.

Sorry correction, the site is playing up so can't edit

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Khalak)
You don't get it do you, when it becomes a matter of life or death, even the slums of Pakistan seem like palaces.

Do you even know anything, the older generations esp thsoe that come from the AK area actually owned land and had farms, why they came here to live in a singkle bed rooms working 12 hour shifts in factories is beyond me.

where does life or death relate to - here where many are supported form starving to death by our benefits system, or paksitan, where people are kidnapped and murderered for being british ex-pats?


re your 2nd para - this entirely depends on who you talk to, many have gone blue in the face on this very forum trying to explain paksitanis in the uk come from largley peasant stock in kashmir.
youre right, I douby many there were many wealthy land owners who would pack all that in to work in a factory here.

[FreshPrincess1]

(Original post by Khalak)
British Muslims, nope you are seen as British Pakistani, a term that has come to be used regularly in the last 15 years or so. Pakistanis are never really viewed as British though, I mean you hear terms such as British Indian, or British African or British Chinese, but the term British Pakistani is so common, because whether you like this or not, you will always be seen as a Pakistani. The British infornt of Paksitani is just to be PC.

You have your views and that's fine, but just in case, have a Pakistani passport at hand, but when I said 'go back', I was actually referring to myself, sorry if it didn't seem that way but thats what I meant.

Well in all application forms I have ever filled in I tick "British Asian" and then select the "Pakistani" option if I am asked to indicate my ethnic background. I have also seen Chinese, Indian, African options on all these forms equally?

However my primary identity is as a Muslim and I ALWAYS refer to myself as a British Muslim.

Also it is not to be PC. I was born in Britain. Therefore I am British. Very simple.

"British Pakistani" and "British Muslim" are two completely different things, so you cannot compare them.

And good luck with your move back to Pakistan. You will definitely need the luck, judging by the terrible all-round conditions there at the moment...

[Khalak]

(Original post by FreshPrincess1)
What on earth are you basing this stupid assumption on? How can you claim what people know and do not know? No-one is saying things are not getting worse, but how exactly is running to Pakistan going to help this?

From what I have seen, thats what I am basing it on.

I am saying a time will come within the next 50-60 years, that you will be not be left with much of a choice other than to go, and lessons from history say, when such circumstances come about its not the best of ideas to try to be a hero and change things, things which have been simmering for decades, its best to leave with some dignity at least, than to stay and lose all of it.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Paladin777)
@ Indo-Chinese food

What do you mean by Islamic rule in Pakistan? Islam is a religion, Muslims are people. In Pakistan it was a series of civil and military generals who ruled the country, with lots of corruption and problems related to geo-politics (the conflict with India)

Saying Pakistan is having an Islamic rule is even more wrong that saying Britain is under "Christian Rule", since the Queen is the head of the official Church. (or it's even like saying the UK is a theocracy).

Britian is a secular ( by government) country. India is too. You need to understand that concept before continuing this discussion

Pakistan is run , although by military dictators, corrupt officials etc, by a judicial system that enforces islamic law. hence why you can be hung/beheaded over there for discussing mohammed and his history as we do here on this forum within the right to free speech.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Khalak)
British Muslims, nope you are seen as British Pakistani, a term that has come to be used regularly in the last 15 years or so. Pakistanis are never really viewed as British though, I mean you hear terms such as British Indian, or British African or British Chinese, but the term British Pakistani is so common, because whether you like this or not, you will always be seen as a Pakistani. .

Isnt that the point of the thread - that paskistanis, or muslims ,in general have made little effort to inegrate and assimilate - other groups have whilst maintaining their own cultural identity, but you describe the process as some sort of conflict that needs to be fought, or else you need to flee to pakistan, but the reality is id guess you are in the minority, later generations will assimlilate far better than you and wont follow your personal exodus

[FreshPrincess1]

(Original post by Khalak)
From what I have seen, thats what I am basing it on.

I am saying a time will come within the next 50-60 years, that you will be not be left with much of a choice other than to go, and lessons from history say, when such circumstances come about its not the best of ideas to try to be a hero and change things, things which have been simmering for decades, its best to leave with some dignity at least, than to stay and lose all of it.

In 60 years, I would be 81 years old. I doubt I would be able to pack up and leave or even be thrown out of here for whatever reason, if I am even alive then.
However if a time like that does come, our religion says to fight for our rights and to defend ourselves - not to grab our passport and run away to another ruined land. Nothing about this situation shows someone trying to be a "hero".
I believe dignity is when you die knowing you were trying to do something good, dignity is not cowardice and running away.

Again like I said before - Each to their own.

[Khalak]

(Original post by FreshPrincess1)
Well in all application forms I have ever filled in I tick "British Asian" and then select the "Pakistani" option if I am asked to indicate my ethnic background.
However my primary identity is as a Muslim and I ALWAYS refer to myself as a British Muslim.

Also it is not to be PC. I was born in Britain. Therefore I am British. Very simple.

"British Pakistani" and "British Muslim" are two completely different things, so you cannot compare them.

And good luck with your move back to Pakistan. You will definitely need the luck, judging by the terrible all-round conditions there at the moment...

Look you seem to be missing the point, it is not what you think of yourself as but (and I really didn't want to say this because i was trying to be PC, but you have failed to read between the lines so have left me with no choice) it is what the white people in this country think of you as, because ultimately the white people are the majority and will dictate the changes in social and political attitudes, and these people see you as British Pakistani hence why the term exist, do you hear British Chinese or british african etc no because they are seen as yes just British.

The Pakistanis in this country would be foolish to not heed the lessons the Jews should have heeded in Germany in the 30s, it would be very foolish indeed, and as a nuclear armed state who would dare to interfere should such cicumstances arise.

The fact is 9/11 and 7/7 are so ingrained into this country that it affects everything between white Britsh and British Pakistani's, it affects everything.

[Khalak]

(Original post by FreshPrincess1)
In 60 years, I would be 81 years old. I doubt I would be able to pack up and leave or even be thrown out of here for whatever reason, if I am even alive then.
However if a time like that does come, our religion says to fight for our rights and to defend ourselves - not to grab our passport and run away to another ruined land. Nothing about this situation shows someone trying to be a "hero".
I believe dignity is when you die knowing you were trying to do something good, dignity is not cowardice and running away.

Again like I said before - Each to their own.

Sometimes it is better to just know when it is time to leave, rather than try to fight a lost battle. The jews were not so lucky, but it was a lesson which if people in the future do not heed, then shame on them.

[Khalak]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Isnt that the point of the thread - that paskistanis, or muslims ,in general have made little effort to inegrate and assimilate - other groups have whilst maintaining their own cultural identity, but you describe the process as some sort of conflict that needs to be fought, or else you need to flee to pakistan, but the reality is id guess you are in the minority, later generations will assimlilate far better than you and wont follow your personal exodus

I never said it needs to be faught, i never argued the rights nor wrongs of such an exodus, i just said a time will come in this country, within my lifetime, when muslims willingly or unwillingly will leave this country in large numbers.

When I came the conditions were ideal, since then they have anything but ideal and heading in the wrong direction, and when the time comes and it will come, believe me, I will leave with no regret, no complaint or anything of the sort.