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A constructive critique of Islam

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    (Original post by Kosmos)
    Of course it is, what do you expect from a document or texts that were used to fuel the Arabian conquests, the qu'ran does three things very effectively: 1) It unites the people of Arabia as brothers in arms and creates a group solidarity headed by god (2) It gives these peoples a purpose in life to fulfill (3) It gives the peoples rules - strict rules to adhere to.

    The suppressing of women is a weird one, apparently the reason women wear veils is because of the faults of men in thinking lustfully. I don't see how women should pay for that, surely men should not succumb to temptation, or men should wear them as well to prevent women from thinking lustfully.
    Wearing veils is not requirement.
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    I never said it was a requirement, but that is the reasoning behind why they do. And they are encouraged to wear it.
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    (Original post by AceStacks)
    1. An Illiterate person would never be able to come up with a Book like the Quran. Arabs at that time were famous for their use of language particularly in the poetry field, none of them had ever seen anything like the Quran they were completely astonished! in fact the Quran challenges all of mankind to create a verse like it. Many have tried none have succeeded. A lot of them even took the decision upon themselves to embrace Islam after getting the chance to study the Quran in such intense detail.

    2. Prophet Mohammed did not do it for the money he lived in 1 room and slept on the floor. The Quraish tribe who were in control of Arabia at that time told prophet Mohammed "If what you want is money, we will gather for you out of our property so that you may be the richest of us; if you want honour, we will make you our chief so that no one can decide anything apart from you; if you want sovereignty, we will make you king" he listened patiently then declined the offer by reciting a verse from the Quran.

    So notice what the pagans did, they sent a representative to try and negotiate with the prophet Muhammad, they offered him power, money, and anything he wanted! If the Prophet Muhammad's goal was for all of these things then why didn't he accept it, it was mission accomplished if we are to believe the critics argument. The prophet Muhammad completely rejected the offer, and he rejected it in the most beautiful manner, by reciting the Quran, to show them that this is the truth, and the truth cannot be compromised for anything, and that it isn't about money or power, it's about salvation and bringing people back to the straight path of God.

    So no, the prophet Muhammad was not out for money, power, or to become a king, if he was, then he would have accepted this offer, rather he rejected it and went through so much trouble, hardship, pain, and losing many friends to death for the truth of Islam. To continue to make the claim that the prophet Muhammad was simply out for fame and fortune is beyond weak, it holds no substance, and is completely refuted by the facts.

    3. There are no scientific errors in the Quran please post them before making the claim.
    I don't think so. There is a whole wiki with cited references of verses in Qu'ran about scientific errors. The scientific knowledge written in the qu'ran is inferior due to the time it was written.

    I'll pick an example from the wiki to prove my point:

    Qu'ran 71:16 says that the moon is a light. It is not; it is a reflector of the sun's light.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific...the_Qur'an

    I think this is an example of extreme ignorance and while religion to a questionable extent in my mind is OK, Scientific Ignorance due to religion is not. It is a delusion to think that all holy texts are 100% accurate.
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    Right Mohammed's sexuality he married a nine year old girl. I know you can say it was the norm back then but the Koran is either the everlasting word of God or it isn't therefore either paedophillia is ok or the Koran is wrong.

    Secondly the translation was from a good book store and high quality. Also to the person who said you lose something in the translation if it is translated correctly why should you? Sounds too much like a getout clause to me.

    Lets keep it objective people no hurling of insults just state whether you like me don't believe in Islam or you do and why you don't believe or believe.
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    (Original post by Banishingboredom)
    Sorry how the **** can you know that. Possibly the weakest theistic argument is that 'God is testing our faith' by a) the lack of evidence in His favour and b) the insurmountable evidence present against His existence or any other claims in holy books.
    Well, that "weak" argument is probably the basis of a lot of Islam's principles. If you don't believe that then there's no point in me arguing with you.
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    (Original post by ThatPerson)
    I don't think so. There is a whole wiki with cited references of verses in Qu'ran about scientific errors. The scientific knowledge written in the qu'ran is inferior due to the time it was written.

    I'll pick an example from the wiki to prove my point:

    Qu'ran 71:16 says that the moon is a light. It is not; it is a reflector of the sun's light.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific...the_Qur'an

    I think this is an example of extreme ignorance and while religion to a questionable extent in my mind is OK, Scientific Ignorance due to religion is not. It is a delusion to think that all holy texts are 100% accurate.
    Oh dear lord, Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source!!
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    (Original post by Starrstruck)
    Oh dear lord, Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source!!
    They have cited all the verses they have used.
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    (Original post by Kosmos)
    But that means he's not treating everyone equally right? He speaks to a handful of "prophets" they've had their evidence, look at people who have seemingly been exposed to God yet still reject him (i.e. Satan, Judas, Muhammed (rejecting to carry out the will of God in marrying Zaynab, Moses (killing an Egyptian)). There are many people who reject his will even though he's supposedly shown himself. So that argument doesn't hold water. Well he was a famous historian at the time, recording the most important trade routes as well as the history at the time.
    Yes, you're right about God not treating everyone equally. But you've probably heard of the test of faith argument - if people have had really bad lives yet still have faith in God, then Islam says that they will be rewarded in the next life. If you still disagree, then I can't help you.
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    (Original post by ThatPerson)
    They have cited all the verses they have used.
    That doesn't make it reliable though. If you want to study Islam in depth, then buy a book from somewhere good. The British Museum recently did an exhibition of Hajj and they've put some reliable books on sale - I can personally vouch for that. Or you could look up some books online - don't believe everything in internet translations.
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    We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)

    Here is another inaccuracy. The Koran states that the bone came before flesh when it fact it is the other way round.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../islamsci.html link to the site.

    And as I hae said the Koran I read was a high quality translation.
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    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)

    Here is another inaccuracy. The Koran states that the bone came before flesh when it fact it is the other way round.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../islamsci.html link to the site.

    And as I hae said the Koran I read was a high quality translation.
    I've just looked at then link you've provided, it couldn't get any more biased. It's dedicated to slander Islam off in every possible way - this is what I meant by you reading everything you believe.
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    Yes, you're right about God not treating everyone equally. But you've probably heard of the test of faith argument - if people have had really bad lives yet still have faith in God, then Islam says that they will be rewarded in the next life. If you still disagree, then I can't help you.

    Thats not unique to Islam is it I seem to remember that both Christianity and Judaism have that. So Starrstruck what is unique about Islam? Why Islam?
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    (Original post by Starrstruck)
    Yes, you're right about God not treating everyone equally. But you've probably heard of the test of faith argument - if people have had really bad lives yet still have faith in God, then Islam says that they will be rewarded in the next life. If you still disagree, then I can't help you.
    No but that means god treats everyone unequally, I don't care about bad lives and such you're shifting the goal posts, I'm saying that if he did exist and was just, he'd show himself to everyone as he apparently did to Muhammed and every other prophet or disciple, then people can decide to disobey him or not.

    I'm not disagreeing with the fact about the bad lives, yes that'd be fine if he proved himself to everyone rather than a select favored few who have apparently been given the evidence.
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    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    Yes, you're right about God not treating everyone equally. But you've probably heard of the test of faith argument - if people have had really bad lives yet still have faith in God, then Islam says that they will be rewarded in the next life. If you still disagree, then I can't help you.

    Thats not unique to Islam is it I seem to remember that both Christianity and Judaism have that. So Starrstruck what is unique about Islam? Why Islam?
    This is clearly an example of someone who we're arguing against but rather than actually accepting that we're right, he either shifts the goal posts or just disregards it.
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    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    We placed him as sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of blood; then of that blood clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! (Quran 23:13-14)

    Here is another inaccuracy. The Koran states that the bone came before flesh when it fact it is the other way round.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../islamsci.html link to the site.

    And as I hae said the Koran I read was a high quality translation.
    Just wanted to add, in the first "step" of embryonic development there is no blood clot that forms everything else.

    Interestingly, this idea seems to have been taken from Aristotle's observations on chicken embryology.
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    When he said; "Rational Thinker" I thought, ok, this should be interesting. Maybe a decent debate is on the tables.

    Then he posts "skepticsannotated" as a "great reference" and that just killed it.

    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    If a God exists why would he appear to an illiterate sheppard why not a person in high authority?
    I don't think you quite know much background information.

    Muhammad(pbuh) before prophethood was;

    1. Rich. He had enough money to live a very comfortable life, and his wife Khadija(ra) was also very rich due to being a business woman.

    2. Apart of the Qureysh tribe, which at that time, were the "boss" tribe of Mecca.

    3. His uncle, Abu Talib ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib, was the leader of the Banu Hashim clan (which is apart of the Qureysh tribe).

    4. He was known amongst his community as "the Trustworthy" (due to Mecca's lawless society, people would entrust Muhammad with their property, wealth and even women, for whenever they had to leave town).

    The amazing thing is, when these same people persecuted him, they never once asked for their stuff back, it probably never crossed their mind because they still trusted him so much due to his character. And Muhammad, before leaving Mecca to escape persecution, got his cousin (Ali(ra)) to return these people's properties back to them, the same people who are trying to kill him and confiscate his own property.

    He was also known as the "truthful". Even Encyclopedia Britannica states;


    "...a mass of detail in the early sources shows that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were likewise honest and upright men." - Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 12



    Muhammad(pbuh) wasn't some poor begger seeking attention. This was one of the things that perplexes the critic, because he had a very comfortable life, a lot of respect, well known, a lot of power, knowing people in all the high places etc.

    Yet, from his own accord, when he had no chance of success (in his preaching) and a sure death wish, he went from that, to becoming a poor person, who these same people ended up hating/persecuting him.

    As for being "illiterate", being illiterate doesn't mean lacking common sense or intellect. It just means you don't know how to read or write.

    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    Mohammed had every reason to lie. Money and power. He showed later in his life that he was possible of deciet which brings me onto my next point.
    Already dis proven this above. He was given many offers, women, power, more money etc. He declined them all and became even poorer when he announced his prophet hood.



    An-Nu’man b. Basheer said: ‘I saw your Prophet () (during a time) when he was not able to even find low quality dates to fill his stomach.’ (Muslim #2977)


    Ibra-heem b. Alqamah said that Abdullah said: ‘The Prophet () lay down on a straw mat which had marked his side, so I said: ‘O Messenger of God! I ransom you with my mother and father! Allow us to put bedding on this mat that you lay on, so your side would not be affected and marked.’ The Prophet () said: ‘My example in this life is like a rider who took rest under the shade of a tree then continued on his journey.’ (Ibn Ma-jah #4109)
    Abu Hurairah said:

    ‘The Messenger of God () never filled his stomach for three consecutive days until his death.’
    (Bukhari #5059)




    Btw your argument is so amatuer, I'm guessing your getting into these discussions just now?

    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    Mohammed doesn't seem perfect to me. Surely wouldn't a perfect person be peaceful and rather than killing people would convert them on rhetoric alone?
    1. No one said Muhammad(pbuh) was perfect, he was a human being like us all. He even got reprimanded by God for some mistakes;



    "The Prophet frowned and turned away. Because there came to him the blind man. And how can you know that he might become pure from sins? Or he might receive ad-monition, and the admonition might profit him?" (Qur'an 80:1-4)

    Abdullah b. Umm Maktoom, who was blind, came to the Prophet () while he was preaching to one or some of the Quraish leaders, and the Prophet () frowned and turned away - and God admonished him on account of that.



    We Muslims believe he was the best example to follow amongst the Humans.

    2. He didn't force anyone to convert, and only fought people who fought against him. Once the fighting was over and he won, he pretty much forgave all those people that persecuted/tortured his followers.


    The day of Mohammad's greatest triumph over his enemies was also the day of his grandest victory over himself. He freely forgave the Koraysh all the years of sorrow and cruel scorn in which they had afflicted him and gave an amnesty to the whole population of Mekka. Four criminals whom justice condemned made up Mohammad's proscription list when he entered as a conqueror to the city of his bitterest enemies. The army followed his example, and entered quietly and peacefully; no house was robbed, no women insulted. One thing alone suffered destruction. Going to the Kaaba, Mohammad stood before each of the three hundred and sixty idols, and pointed to it with his staff, saying, "Truth has come and falsehood has fled away"; and at these words his attendants hewed them down, and all the idols and household gods of Mekka and round about were destroyed... through all the annals of conquest there is no triumphant entry comparable to this one - The Speeches and Table-Talk of the Prophet Mohammad, Stanley Lane-Pool


    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    The many scientific errors in the Koran seem to be an indication Islam is not right
    None. You are at a very very amateur stage atm, I don't think you'd be able to comprehend linguistics if I tried to explain it to you.

    The argument is simply that the Qur'an doesn't negate established realities. Most of the "science verses" are also considered mutashaabih, which means vague or could have more than one meaning. And it's quite specific/unique to these kinds of verses, as their purpose is simply to make the reader reflect/think; as opposed to the muhkam verses, which hold the most importance, as they are commands and show you how to be a Muslim.
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    (Original post by Kosmos)
    Of course it is, what do you expect from a document or texts that were used to fuel the Arabian conquests, the qu'ran does three things very effectively: 1) It unites the people of Arabia as brothers in arms and creates a group solidarity headed by god (2) It gives these peoples a purpose in life to fulfill (3) It gives the peoples rules - strict rules to adhere to.

    The suppressing of women is a weird one, apparently the reason women wear veils is because of the faults of men in thinking lustfully. I don't see how women should pay for that, surely men should not succumb to temptation, or men should wear them as well to prevent women from thinking lustfully.
    I think you've proved my point even further. Each of those three things are besides the point, and 4) promotes violence and intolerance. We are in 2012 for pities sake, not the time of the Muhammad (peace be upon him). People shouldn't live on the worlds of a medieval warrior

    Oh comon, you cannot deny that Islam subjugates women. It has little to do with temptation, and everything to do with power and dominance. The fact that men are allowed to have multiple spouses, yet women are not, the enforcement of veils, segregation in public, it goes on and on. How are these so called principles fit for the modern world? especially democratic western societies.

    *Oh and I know a lot of Muslims on the surface shrub these issues off. But deep down many actually still take in some of the stuff the Qu'ran says. I remember the irony when a Muslim girl said to me that "I don't hate kafirs (to me) just because they are not Muslim". I've heard Muslims use that term before to describe anyone who isn't them. It means "unclean", "dirty", "impure", "infidel"; take your pick again. Either way - Nice! Loveley attitudes there!
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    (Original post by Starrstruck)
    I've just looked at then link you've provided, it couldn't get any more biased. It's dedicated to slander Islam off in every possible way - this is what I meant by you reading everything you believe.
    Here are the various translations of that verse:

    http://quran.com/23/14
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    (Original post by Trailblazer)
    I think you've proved my point even further. Each of those three things are besides the point, and 4) promotes violence and intolerance. We are in 2012 for pities sake, not the time of the Muhammad (peace be upon him). People shouldn't live on the worlds of a medieval warrior

    Oh comon, you cannot deny that Islam subjugates women. It has little to do with temptation, and everything to do with power and dominance. The fact that men are allowed to have multiple spouses, yet women are not, the enforcement of veils, segregation in public, it goes on and on. How are these so called principles fit for the modern world? especially democratic western societies.
    Why did you put peace be upon him after muhammad, are you a muslim?

    I'm agreeing with you.
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    None. You are at a very very amateur stage atm, I don't think you'd be able to comprehend linguistics if I tried to explain it to you.

    The argument is simply that the Qur'an doesn't negate established realities. Most of the "science verses" are also considered mutashaabih, which means vague or could have more than one meaning.

    Well considering that many inaccuracies have been shown by people on this thread your argument makes no sense. The Ad hominum is poorly placed.

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