[Dark Horse]

It's pretty much a given that most people will look like crap when on/after Starting Strength. In fact I looked so bad that I stopped lifting for 1.5 months and barely ate maintenance calories.

However, I'm keen to return and complete my SS goal of-

Squat - 3 plates
DL - 4 plates
Bench Press - 2 plates

I want to incorporate IF to keep the fat gain in check. Has anyone tried this? Or have an opinion?

I will note that I was sometimes gaining 4lbs a week on Starting Strength last time. Thanks GOMAD.

[Joe909]

You gained the fat because of an excessive surplus of calories, as far as I know, SS is well known for being a very bulky strength program. I'm cutting and IF has been amazing for me so far, but I have realised that due to the excessive periods of fasting I have lost muscle. My strength is not increasing however, so if you are looking for a large increase in strength and size I would just follow IIFIYM and do SS until you plateau, then start Hell Raiser.

Go hard and good luck

[Illidan_Stormrage]

The reason people look like crap on it is because it is because they run the program with a stupidly high calorie surplus. If you're gaining 4lb a week you will become a tub of lard regardless of what program you do. You don't have to do IF. Just keep your calorie excess under control. Make sure that you aren't gaining anymore than 1lb per week.

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by Joe909)
You gained the fat because of an excessive surplus of calories, as far as I know, SS is well known for being a very bulky strength program. I'm cutting and IF has been amazing for me so far, but I have realised that due to the excessive periods of fasting I have lost muscle. My strength is not increasing however, so if you are looking for a large increase in strength and size I would just follow IIFIYM and do SS until you plateau, then start Hell Raiser.

Go hard and good luck

What's Hell Raiser? Please say it's not another strength routine....

And yes an excess of surplus kcals exactly. I hate this thing though, that it seems like you have to get fat to get strong. It seems possible to bulk for mass gain WITHOUT getting too fat - but the powerlifting/strength routines seem to endorse getting fat as long as you keep putting up big numbers (which fat and strong people often do).

Gonna go 2500kcal/day for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by alex_tait)
The reason people look like crap on it is because it is because they run the program with a stupidly high calorie surplus. If you're gaining 4lb a week you will become a tub of lard regardless of what program you do. You don't have to do IF. Just keep your calorie excess under control. Make sure that you aren't gaining anymore than 1lb per week.

Lol that "stupidly high calories surplus" wasn't my own idea.

[Joe909]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
What's Hell Raiser? Please say it's not another strength routine....

And yes an excess of surplus kcals exactly. I hate this thing though, that it seems like you have to get fat to get strong. It seems possible to bulk for mass gain WITHOUT getting too fat - but the powerlifting/strength routines seem to endorse getting fat as long as you keep putting up big numbers (which fat and strong people often do).

Gonna go 2500kcal/day for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=133163973 - Calculate TDEE, add on 200 kcal surplus for good strength gains with minimal fat gains.

Hit macro's every day.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hrt-...-overview.html - This is hellraiser, the strength and size gains are just ridiculous. Within the 12 weeks I moved from 225lbs on bench to 290lbs.

[Mr. Fox]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
What's Hell Raiser? Please say it's not another strength routine....

And yes an excess of surplus kcals exactly. I hate this thing though, that it seems like you have to get fat to get strong. It seems possible to bulk for mass gain WITHOUT getting too fat - but the powerlifting/strength routines seem to endorse getting fat as long as you keep putting up big numbers (which fat and strong people often do).

Gonna go 2500kcal/day for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

Where did you pick up the idea that novice strength programmes 'endorse' getting fat? I'm well aware that many idiots do make themselves fat, but where did you get that idea from?

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by Mr. Fox)
Where did you pick up the idea that novice strength programmes 'endorse' getting fat? I'm well aware that many idiots do make themselves fat, but where did you get that idea from?

Because the advice in Starting Strength is to drink a gallon of whole fat milk per day on top of the 3 meals most people have. "Endorse" was perhaps the wrong word to use. Although it's clear that most strength coaches and practitioners don't really care for trainee's who are averse to the fat they gain.

Many of them also say something like this: "Well since you've gained so much fat you will have more head room for your linear progression". And I'll tell you now that those "idiots" are simply just novices who follow said rubbish advice because certain people who sit in ivory towers deem that their way is "the correct way", and anything else is bs.

I've bulked to 20% bodyfat on a programme I don't really enjoy doing in the slightest, with the understanding that "being able to lift more will make a hypertrophy based programme more effective later on". All I can say is....it ****ing better.

[The Blind Monk]

It depends on how it works out for you. Zach is the proto-typical Rippetoe protege. He got unusually strong for the length of time he was training. He also got rather unaesthetic (not that he cared.) It's a personal thing where that trade off between getting a bit fatter and a bit stronger stops paying off for you. If you don't enjoy starting strength, don't do it. There are plenty of people who've got big ,strong and aesthetic off bodybuilding splits.

[rlw31]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
Because the advice in Starting Strength is to drink a gallon of whole fat milk per day on top of the 3 meals most people have. "Endorse" was perhaps the wrong word to use. Although it's clear that most strength coaches and practitioners don't really care for trainee's who are averse to the fat they gain.

Many of them also say something like this: "Well since you've gained so much fat you will have more head room for your linear progression". And I'll tell you now that those "idiots" are simply just novices who follow said rubbish advice because certain people who sit in ivory towers deem that their way is "the correct way", and anything else is bs.

I've bulked to 20% bodyfat on a programme I don't really enjoy doing in the slightest, with the understanding that "being able to lift more will make a hypertrophy based programme more effective later on". All I can say is....it ****ing better.

Erm, not for everyone it doesn't.

Eating correctly may mean 6000 calories/day, including a gallon of whole milk, or it may mean 3500 calories/day on a Paleo-type, lower-carb, no-dairy diet.

[Illidan_Stormrage]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
Because the advice in Starting Strength is to drink a gallon of whole fat milk per day on top of the 3 meals most people have. "Endorse" was perhaps the wrong word to use. Although it's clear that most strength coaches and practitioners don't really care for trainee's who are averse to the fat they gain.

Many of them also say something like this: "Well since you've gained so much fat you will have more head room for your linear progression". And I'll tell you now that those "idiots" are simply just novices who follow said rubbish advice because certain people who sit in ivory towers deem that their way is "the correct way", and anything else is bs.

I've bulked to 20% bodyfat on a programme I don't really enjoy doing in the slightest, with the understanding that "being able to lift more will make a hypertrophy based programme more effective later on". All I can say is....it ****ing better.

Stop doing a program that you don't like. If your main goal was hypertrophy would've been better off doing a full body or upper lower routine with bodybuilding rep ranges. People on here think that you need a certain level of strength to benefit from a bodybuilding rep ranges which is completely wrong. You just need to get stronger in whatever it is you're doing. My advice would be to cut to a more reasonable body fat and work from there.

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by rlw31)
Erm, not for everyone it doesn't.

Well I'm not on the caveman diet, and this was obvious since I've already stated that I used GOMAD. I don't see how your post is relevant.

[RollerBall]

Don't eat 2.5k and still expect to make any gains. Eat a reasonable amount to gain (3kish) and measure your weight gain. You should only be putting on 1lb a week at most, anymore eat less. If you're not maintaining 1lb a week, eat more.

[rlw31]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
Well I'm not on the caveman diet, and this was obvious since I've already stated that I used GOMAD. I don't see how your post is relevant.

Of course it's relevant, you misinterpreted the advice regarding nutrition and if you think that last comment meant either 6000 calories/day including gomad or the "caveman diet" then you're beyond help.

Please tell me you weren't having a UK gallon?

[tooosh]

Gains might be slow. I would go on a big cut, reducing weight if necessary (but try and avoid it as much as possible) and when you have an acceptable fat level, do the program again. I don't think you needed all those calories on your first run.

Also bear in mind linear progression might not get to 3/2/4 plates for everyone.

If you want to go for aesthetics, ditch SS. Base of strength from what I can tell, is a concept Rip made up. He doesn't back up his points with experimental science, just experience which is fine, but not for something like this.

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by rlw31)
Of course it's relevant, you misinterpreted the advice regarding nutrition and if you think that last comment meant either 6000 calories/day including gomad or the "caveman diet" then you're beyond help.

Please tell me you weren't having a UK gallon?

Seems like we have a Rippetoe worshiper.

[rlw31]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
Seems like we have a Rippetoe worshiper.

Just because I can read, doesn't mean I worship Rippetoe.

You've been having a UK gallon haven't you?

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by rlw31)
Just because I can read, doesn't mean I worship Rippetoe.

You've been having a UK gallon haven't you?

Seems like you should be doing less reading and more lifting.

[rlw31]

(Original post by Dark Horse)
Seems like you should be doing less reading and more lifting.

So says the guy who's fat****ed himself due to poor reading comprehension skills.

[Dark Horse]

(Original post by rlw31)
So says the guy who's fat****ed himself due to poor reading comprehension skills.

lol u mad?