[Hypocrism]

(Original post by viriol)
Sure. Plus you can go there on foot if you can pass through the archangel with the flaming sword. I recommend taking a gun (beats flaming sword anytime).

Oh, ha ha, taking things super-literally are we? I think it was pretty explicit that the pain of childbirth was given as a punishment. Some things can't be written off.

[viriol]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Oh, ha ha, taking things super-literally are we? I think it was pretty explicit that the pain of childbirth was given as a punishment. Some things can't be written off.

Where?

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by viriol)
Where?

Genesis 3

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and ate, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he ate.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves things to gird about.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam and said unto him, “Where art thou?”
10 And he said, “I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
12 And the man said, “The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, “What is this that thou hast done?” And the woman said, “The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.”
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, “Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field. Upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.”
16 Unto the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
17 And unto Adam He said, “Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying, ‘Thou shalt not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



Plainly obvious. One woman eats the forbidden fruit, women forever are subject to childbirth pains.

[lucaf]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Genesis 3

Plainly obvious. One woman eats the forbidden fruit, women forever are subject to childbirth pains.

and people say that god isn't just

now I just need to bypass the flaming sword, eat from the tree of life and live forever...

[viriol]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Genesis 3

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and ate, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he ate.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves things to gird about.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam and said unto him, “Where art thou?”
10 And he said, “I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
12 And the man said, “The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, “What is this that thou hast done?” And the woman said, “The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.”
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, “Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field. Upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.”
16 Unto the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
17 And unto Adam He said, “Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying, ‘Thou shalt not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever”—
23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



Plainly obvious. One woman eats the forbidden fruit, women forever are subject to childbirth pains.

Clearly you must not have been there the million times it was said the Genesis was one of the books that weren't supposed to be interpreted in a literal fashion

[123maz]

If the person is christian and having sex before marriage, then yes they are commiting sin. They are not following what their religion is saying then are they?

[MrBlueMo0n]

(Original post by 123maz)
If the person is christian and having sex before marriage, then yes they are commiting sin. They are not following what their religion is saying then are they?

I know right?!?!?!?! How can they avoid that???? They just give me negs and tell me I'm insensitive or something! They are physically committing a bloody sin!

[ArcadiaHouse]

(Original post by Alpharius)
I went to a Catholic school.

I can't think of anyone (aside from the socially inept) from there that are still virgin.

Have you gone to every single person and asked them that?

Unless you've seen to it yourself?

[Carter78]

Hell Yes.

[AvocatInTraining]

(Original post by kashim91)
As a practising Muslim I second this. OP, please get a life, if your a Muslim, spend your time educating yourself about the deen, and the etiquettes of liaising with your brothers and sisters in Islam, as well as you're brothers and sisters in humanity. There is many forbidden things that Muslims aren't supposed to do yet they do it. Shaving is forbidden, but loads of Muslims shave and start fingerpointing at women who don't wear hijab. The vast majority of these people are deluded, please don't make yourself one of these people. In some Muslim country's alcohol and some other things that are forbidden in Islam are legal. Before you change the world, you should change yourself.

Shaving isn't forbidden, it's just Sunnah to grow a beard, but I agree with everything you're saying.

[LoveLoveLove16]

(Original post by Really_Gonna_Rock_)
So Christians are not supposed to have sex before marriage, as that's forbidden in their religion.

But I've met a lot of people who claim to be Christians who are having sex with their girlfriend or boyfriend, who they are not married to.

Where in the Bible does it say that having sex with your girlfriend or boyfriend is allowed? Look in the Bible. Nowhere does it say this is permitted.

So Christians who have sex with their girlfriend or boyfriend are basically hypocrites and are committing a sin, according to their religion.

Any Christians here who have sex with their gf or bf? How do you justify it to yourself, when your religion blatantly says not to have sex before marriage?

If you're christian yourself, just shut up. I'm Christian and haven't done that with anyone, but tbh it's none of your business, it's between them and God, keep your nose out of their business. That's the issue nowadays, Christians are becoming too nosey and judgemental. Leave it down to God because sin is sin. You are perfect and have sinned in other ways, you're no one to judge.

[kashim91]

(Original post by AvocatInTraining)
Shaving isn't forbidden, it's just Sunnah to grow a beard, but I agree with everything you're saying.

Which ulema said its a sunnah? SubhanAllah, muslims blindly follow everything and question nothing. Beard being sunnah is fabrication and is just something your family will tell you. Men have such double standards, they love finger point at girls who don't wear hijab and don't realise its haraam to shave. It was an order from the prophet to lengthen the beard and trim the moustache
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m35C6...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfvNO...eature=related
Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said "I have no connection iwth one who shaves, shouts and tears his clothing eg. in grief or affication."
- Reported by Abu Darda (R.A.) in Muslim, Hadith no. 501
One of these reports is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Umar who said that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: lengthen your beards and trim your moustaches.”

[123maz]

(Original post by MrBlueMo0n)
I know right?!?!?!?! How can they avoid that???? They just give me negs and tell me I'm insensitive or something! They are physically committing a bloody sin!

Tell me about it, i have 5 warning points and a neg for telling the truth,

[-Feu et Glace-]

(Original post by Really_Gonna_Rock_)
So Christians are not supposed to have sex before marriage, as that's forbidden in their religion.

But I've met a lot of people who claim to be Christians who are having sex with their girlfriend or boyfriend, who they are not married to.

Where in the Bible does it say that having sex with your girlfriend or boyfriend is allowed? Look in the Bible. Nowhere does it say this is permitted.

So Christians who have sex with their girlfriend or boyfriend are basically hypocrites and are committing a sin, according to their religion.

Any Christians here who have sex with their gf or bf? How do you justify it to yourself, when your religion blatantly says not to have sex before marriage?

There is no such thing as boyfriend/girlfriend in Christianity. It would be abnormal and unnatural for a young man and woman to come together without wanting to love each other. The Bible realises this and so has used marriage as way for young people to fulfil their desires as much as to reproduce.

The Bible does not want to make a Christain's life difficult. Everyone has desires but also a degree of shyness, especially in their youth. By allowing free relations that shyness starts to erode until it becomes very easy to have sex with someone with no commitment. Thats the reason for most divorces; the ease of being able to walk away instead of learning to love your partner within the bounds of marriage.

Having sex is not a sin, in fact it is encouraged as long as there is commitment.

[-Feu et Glace-]

(Original post by thegaffer91)
I think you have to consider many of the rules in the Bible (and probably other religious texts) with a level of consideration to the times in which they were made. Consider 2000 years ago. If there was a lot of sex outside of marriage, this leads to a lot of kids outside of marriage which, in those days, would be problematic. It would not have been a good thing for lots of single mothers with no husbands and hence no income to try to look after a lot of kids. As (generally) there wasn't divorce in these societies, once married, the husband and wife were far better prepared to look after and raise kids.

Now let's fast forward to the present day. Now we have condoms and other forms of birth control, and we have greater support networks for families who have children they cannot afford. If a boyfriend and a girlfriend are having protected sex, chances are, they aren't going to have a baby. They aren't sleeping around, so they aren't breaking any morals in that respect. If these rules were being formed now, I would expect that the rules wouldn't be 'no sex before marriage', but 'no sex outside a stable and loving relationship'

They are the same thing.

[Alpharius]

(Original post by ArcadiaHouse)
Have you gone to every single person and asked them that?

Unless you've seen to it yourself?

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by -Feu et Glace-)
There is no such thing as boyfriend/girlfriend in Christianity. It would be abnormal and unnatural for a young man and woman to come together without wanting to love each other. The Bible realises this and so has used marriage as way for young people to fulfil their desires as much as to reproduce.

The Bible does not want to make a Christain's life difficult. Everyone has desires but also a degree of shyness, especially in their youth. By allowing free relations that shyness starts to erode until it becomes very easy to have sex with someone with no commitment. Thats the reason for most divorces; the ease of being able to walk away instead of learning to love your partner within the bounds of marriage.

Having sex is not a sin, in fact it is encouraged as long as there is commitment.

This is ridiculous!! You cannot possibly make the commitment of marriage without having spent significant time with them as a couple, even if you haven't had sex. Not all boyfriends/girlfriends have sex, you know-you can have a committed relationship outside of marriage, and it can include sex or it can not include sex.

[-Feu et Glace-]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
This is ridiculous!! You cannot possibly make the commitment of marriage without having spent significant time with them as a couple, even if you haven't had sex. Not all boyfriends/girlfriends have sex, you know-you can have a committed relationship outside of marriage, and it can include sex or it can not include sex.

Yes, I know that many 'boyfriend-girlfriend relationships' do not include sex but the vast majority do. In these relationships there is physical contact (kissing, holding etc) otherwise the boy and girl are just friends. I cannot think of any healthy human being who would not feel desires after doing that and, as I mention, the vast majority do include sex. Some are able to surpress their desires but the vast majority cannot and that is why Christianity promotes marriage. It is more healthy, natural and beneficial to have sex than to deny yourself.

Your immaturity is highlighted when you equate time spent together to a successful marriage. Many of these 'boyfriend-girlfriend relationships' last for years, having fun together, perhaps moving-in together, even having a baby before they consider marriage. Yet these are often the couples that end up splitting/divorcing because their relationship is based on things like similar taste in music, going out to cinemas, resturants, bars etc and other 'personality' traits that simply cannot be the basis of happiness and commitment. Then the cycle begins again with more 'dating' and 'exploring' until it becomes very easy for them to walk away even when they don't want to becuase they have had a new partner each time their short-term personalities have changed. What decides suitability is initial physical attraction, relationships with their own family (esp. with parents) and strong morals that don't take long to be distinguished. Once in marriage, the couple can adapt and learn to love each other while others continue searching and never really find true happiness.

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by -Feu et Glace-)
Yes, I know that many 'boyfriend-girlfriend relationships' do not include sex but the vast majority do. In these relationships there is physical contact (kissing, holding etc) otherwise the boy and girl are just friends. I cannot think of any healthy human being who would not feel desires after doing that and, as I mention, the vast majority do include sex. Some are able to surpress their desires but the vast majority cannot and that is why Christianity promotes marriage. It is more healthy, natural and beneficial to have sex than to deny yourself.

Your immaturity is highlighted when you equate time spent together to a successful marriage. Many of these 'boyfriend-girlfriend relationships' last for years, having fun together, perhaps moving-in together, even having a baby before they consider marriage. Yet these are often the couples that end up splitting/divorcing because their relationship is based on things like similar taste in music, going out to cinemas, resturants, bars etc and other 'personality' traits that simply cannot be the basis of happiness and commitment. Then the cycle begins again with more 'dating' and 'exploring' until it becomes very easy for them to walk away even when they don't want to becuase they have had a new partner each time their short-term personalities have changed. What decides suitability is initial physical attraction, relationships with their own family (esp. with parents) and strong morals that don't take long to be distinguished. Once in marriage, the couple can adapt and learn to love each other while others continue searching and never really find true happiness.

You're blinded by your religious doctrine, and your post is again ridiculous. Why do these boyfriend-girlfriend couplings end? Because the two find out they are not suitable for each other. If they were married instead of in a relationship? Divorce or unhappiness. If your above model ever happens (it doesn't) it will end, or hold together only because both think they will be sinning if the end the relationship. Not a great relationship model if you actually think about it. We don't need to keep living in the 1st century.

Now a proper model would be some kind of attraction then a relationship based on physical and emotional factors, proper bonding, friendship, ... then marriage when you find yourself in the right situation.

[big-bang-theory]

(Original post by funsongfactory)
As has been said before, the Bible forbids sexual immorality and adultery. It's subjective whether you interpret this mean sex between married people outside of their marriage, or sex between non-married people. So if you believe the former then you believe that cheating on your husband/wife is immoral and is what the Bible forbids, and if you believe the latter then you believe that not only is cheating on your husband/wife immoral and forbidden, but so is sex with anyone before you are married.

Completely subjective.

In an English translation sure that's a viable interpretation. But given the Greek conception of sexual immorality (off the top of my head the greek word is pornos but I don't have my Greek bible with me) clearly included sex before marriage. Unless God's morality is rolling it's simply a case of being unable to fully translate the parameters of the prohibition into working English.