Why is sleeping with a drunk girl rape?

What a cop-out, come on - explain it.
We aren't born with this knowledge, so it must be explicable and can be put into words.

Okay, so a girl is drunk and either not making sense, can't walk straight etc.. If you think there is a possibility she is too drunk, then stay away. It is literally gut instinct and erring on the side of caution. If you still don't think you could recognise a very drunk girl, then just don't go home with any drunk girl

So we're back at square one and have no idea what is acceptable, socially or legally, and it's all down to our individual judgement, which will presumably differ from her individual judgement, and then maybe the judge's individual... judgement.

I don't think it's satisfactory that we can't explain what does and doesn't constitute "consent", and have to just er on the side of caution by avoiding girls altogether.

You did allude to some tests such as walking in a straight line. Do you think perhaps we should have standard and accepted tests like that, maybe even a breathaliser to be very clear about it, some objective way to determine when women are no longer fit to make decisions for themselves?

Not avoid girls altogether, just very drunk girls.

Why is that so bad? lol. I really think you are over-thinking this, it is quite easy to tell

when a girl has had quite a few drinks.

What is the "very drunk" limit and how do we determine is clearly and objectively?



So surely you can explain how?



"quite a few" is perhaps not a clear enough concept. Should it be fixed to a certain number of units consumed... maybe per bodyweight... or just a blood alcohol concentration?

Intention at the point of sex, not what was expressed prior to that though.

Well obviously...although that has nothing to do with intoxication. People are obviously capable of changing their minds, drunk or not.

I know, I have just heard people claim before that if a girl says yes when reasonable and then gets too drunk to consent again, the first consent applies

But legally speaking there is not really any such thing as 'too drunk to consent' unless you're so hammered you've passed out. Morally, well that's a totally different issue.

Again in the eyes of the law, the situation you have described would probably not be rape because the defendant would have reasonable grounds to believe that she did consent. Obviously though, it is fact-specific.

What about the recent Evans and McDonald case, where she was not passed out but very drunk? That seems to support the stance courts are beginning to take.

You mention the Bree case but missed out "if, through drink or for any other reason, the complainant has temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have intercourse on the relevant occasion, she is not consenting, and subject to questions about the defendant's state of mind, if intercourse takes place, this would be rape." So it is not about whether they are passed out, but whether they can reasonably consent (as always).

The story I remember was the footballer who picked up a really drunk girl with his friend when he was sober and there was cctv and a witness in his hotel and he was convicted so its not completely impossible. I was so drunk once that I blacked out and had sex with my boyfriend then not remembered the next day, but obviously I consented to it so again there is a grey area.

it's not rubbish, but it's too simplistic,
if drunk = unable to remember & unable to form proper sentences then yes, it is rape.

However how the person act before hand is important too, I was at a festival once and I got with this guy, then I got very drunk and I'll admit woke up unaware of what happened exactly but to me thats not rape because I indicated I was okay with it before hand,

it is a very grey area, which is probably why the conviction rate is so low

Some of the girls on these two threads (the other one being Drunk Girls in Ayia Napa) have applied incredible cognitive dissonance whereas they insist that if a girl is too drunk but still capable of saying yes, that doesn't count because she doesn't know what she is doing and therefore it's rape.

Even if they give all the signs that they are up for sex, going home with the guy, saying yes to sex and participating.

Then for some bizarre reason they include an example of where in their case it's not rape because they 'obviously consented' somehow.

note how I said not ALL sex with drunk girls is rape, and used my example as a case were it's not, I just said that MOST cases would be rape, not all

But by agreeing to go home (or tent) with someone for the purposes of a sexual liason, this is generally an indication that you are OK with it beforehand.

Girls have, in their drunken state, agreed to go home with a guy for the purposes of sex, woken up in the morning, have no recollection for the night before, gone to the police and the guy has still ended up being done for rape because even though she had indicated she was up for sex beforehand, she wasn't capable of consenting the moment before he stuck it in.

Not that I want to, but I asked a question in another thread which was misconstrued and an argument kicked off. So it got me thinking, but correct me if I'm wrong.

So the legal argument for sleeping with a drunk person is that "they were not capable of giving proper consent", right? They were too out of their mind to make a proper decision before committing an act.

But why is that a problem. Surely by that logic, drunk drivers and drunk murderers should not be punished as well, as they were too intoxicated to make a proper decision and that any damage caused by their actions were 'accidental' ?

If you get so drunk that you are no longer responsible for your actions, why should someone else be responsible for them. Why should the man who you sleep with when drunk, take the blame and forever carry the stigma of being a racist, even if you lose the case? How does someone even tell when you're too drunk? It's a ridiculous legal argument.

Lol this. Was at a part a month ago, with this hot girl, about 5am everyone absolutely ****ed going to bed, and not sure but we ended up naked and she wanted to have sex, so I said yeah, she said get a condom lol but I couldn't get hard it felt like I was raping her man, was too easy......

I suppose it depends on the mindset of the girl, personally, I was up for it before, I'd indicated that to him, I'd decided that beforehand in my own head, we then went on to share drinks which led to intoxication. I suppose part of it is also how the girl perceives it, although I'm unsure if anything did happen if it did to me it was consentual, but I see how other girls could wake up and feel it was not if it was them in the same position, I suppose that aspect shows how it is generally easier to just avoid sleeping with intoxicated people.

Basically I'm of the opinion if you consent /before/ drinking it's okay, if you consent after becoming drunk I'd find it iffy as to whether said person is able to consent, if that makes sense?