[Tpos]

(Original post by farhiyaserar)
when allah clearly has said killing a person is a sin that even allah can't forgive.

Where does it say that? I'm wondering cuz I thought shirk was the only unforgivable sin. :s

[Politricks]

(Original post by farhiyaserar)
that is the thing, for me it is not just a book. It is a lot more than that!

Yes, I can see that it's more than a book to you, in fact, you seem to be so engrossed in your book, that it's more valuable than the life of another human being?

I'm sure a portrait of Kim Jong-Il for a North Korean soldier is more precious than the life of another human, but to you and me, it's just a portrait of Kim Jong-Il, in the same way that your book, to the rest of the world, is just another book, like the Bible and the Hindu scriptures.

If, in the 21st century, we still have people who sincerely believe that disrespecting a book is worse than murder and violence, then humanity still has a long way to go.

[Politricks]

(Original post by Tpos)
Where does it say that? I'm wondering cuz I thought shirk was the only unforgivable sin. :s

Then is he really the most forgiving? Seeing as he won't be able to forgive almost a billion Indian Hindus for a crime they didn't know was a crime, for the crime of blindly believing what their parents believe in, in the same way a Muslim child blindly follows the beliefs of his Muslim parents?

[DudeRugs]

(Original post by Miraclefish)
Sure, they're ********s who want, and usually get, a reaction.

But it's a huge, huge overeaction when looked at logically. And would be an ideal situation to demonstrate the 'turning of the cheek' that religions preach.

I agree that they completely over reacted, but my point was more to

"Surely it shouldn't matter one iota what people outside of a religion do, say and think to a book or picture or drawing. It's the conduct of those who believe in a faith who that faith should be concerned with."

Which is basically saying it shouldn't offend them. When clearly those actions would offend all of us, if we were on the receiving end.

[Left Hand Drive]

No burning a Quran does not warrant that type of reaction! It is an extreme over reaction. Their actions are indefensible. I was offended is not a good enough excuse!

If a rival football team burns one of my teams scarfs/flags is it ok for me to riot/murder/ assault? I hold my team in high prestige!

[Tpos]

(Original post by Politricks)
Then is he really the most forgiving? Seeing as he won't be able to forgive almost a billion Indian Hindus for a crime they didn't know was a crime, for the crime of blindly believing what their parents believe in, in the same way a Muslim child blindly follows the beliefs of his Muslim parents?

God is the most forgiving *and the most just*

If someone has not heard about Islam and do not get the chance to learn about it then that is different.
But if someone does have a chance to learn but isn't open minded enough/just doesn't bother then such a person can't really blame it on not knowing.

The Quran tells it's readers to NOT blindly follow your fathers and forefathers. It tells you to use your own brain.

[Politricks]

(Original post by Tpos)
God is the most forgiving *and the most just*

If someone has not heard about Islam and do not get the chance to learn about it then that is different.
But if someone does have a chance to learn but isn't open minded enough/just doesn't bother then such a person can't really blame it on not knowing.

The Quran tells it's readers to NOT blindly follow your fathers and forefathers. It tells you to use your own brain.

Well, if Allah can't find it in himself to forgive somebody who believed in multiple gods, even when knowing the key beliefs of Islam (which most Indians who were educated at secondary level would know), then that really says something.

[Thinker03]

(Original post by Tpos)
God is the most forgiving *and the most just*

If someone has not heard about Islam and do not get the chance to learn about it then that is different.
But if someone does have a chance to learn but isn't open minded enough/just doesn't bother then such a person can't really blame it on not knowing.

The Quran tells it's readers to NOT blindly follow your fathers and forefathers. It tells you to use your own brain.

Well that's what I did. I didn't blindly follow my parents who were Muslims, I used my brain, reasoning, ... and became an Atheist.

But that's not what he wants. He wants you to get to the same conclusion that Muslims do, and if you don't then you won't deserve ANY forgiveness. If you're like me, who was born to Muslim parents, and used my brain to question what they told me, well that's death penalty.

Well, that's very forgiving and just.

[Politricks]

(Original post by Thinker03)
Well that's what I did. I didn't blindly follow my parents who were Muslims, I used my brain, reasoning, ... and became an Atheist.

Same, I used to be a Muslim and became an Atheist around 2010/2011.
The Qur'an actually wants us to believe than we're made of clay, and that stars are actually missiles which drive Shaytan away, I can't believe I seriously used to believe that

[getoom]

(Original post by Politricks)
Well, if Allah can't find it in himself to forgive somebody who believed in multiple gods, even when knowing the key beliefs of Islam (which most Indians who were educated at secondary level would know), then that really says something.

Shirk is only unforgivable if you die upon it

[kashim91]

(Original post by Llewellyn_J)
I am curious about what muslims generally think to this issue. In recent years, there have been some news stories where defacing of the Qu'ran made public has led to some Muslims reacting with riots and attacks. By no means am i saying every Muslim is like this, but I am going to ask anyway...

To muslims: Who do you think is more in the wrong? Those that deface/dis-respect the Qu'ran and Islam, or the muslims that respond with riots, violence and death-threats.

As a Muslim, I think actions speak louder than words, so the muslims are in the wrong in this case. Calling someone names is irritating, but riots and violence cause lasting damage, and further mislead people to believe stereotypes

[JammyChoos]

As a muslim, obviously im going to say defacing the Qu'ran is worse. but that doesnt mean causing riots is okay either.

[JammyChoos]

(Original post by Politricks)
stars are actually missiles which drive Shaytan away

I've never heard that before or read it in the Qu'ran. Im sure you must be misinformed.

[Politricks]

(Original post by JammyChoos)
I've never heard that before or read it in the Qu'ran. Im sure you must be misinformed.

Qur'an 67:5

(Original post by JammyChoos)
As a muslim, obviously im going to say defacing the Qu'ran is worse. but that doesnt mean causing riots is okay either.

Only shows what an appalling person you are, defacing a Qur'an is worse than death threats, violence and murder?

[Xotol]

(Original post by JammyChoos)
As a muslim, obviously im going to say defacing the Qu'ran is worse. but that doesnt mean causing riots is okay either.

You don't have to. It's cool if you whole-heartedly believe in the Qur'an, but it's worth taking the time to appreciate that others do not hold anywhere near the same kind of reverence towards it. Does some random person burning a Qur'an affect you that much? Don't you believe that Allah will deal with it in the end? Riots, death threats and attacks, on the other hand, are actions which can harm other people now.

[Politricks]

(Original post by getoom)
Shirk is only unforgivable if you die upon it

Well seeing as Allah only forgives sins in this life, but doesn't forgive shirk, then it's obvious he can't forgive shirk even before you die.

[rmpr97]

One is entitled to freedom of speech and to express an opinion, regardless if you like it or not.

You're not entitled to kill because someone's opinions or actions have upset you.

[getoom]

(Original post by Politricks)
Well seeing as Allah only forgives sins in this life, but doesn't forgive shirk, then it's obvious he can't forgive shirk even before you die.

?

Allah forgives sins after you die through the trials of the grave and the Day of Qiyamah.

Allah forgives shirk if you sincerely repent and retake your Shahada only when you are alive.

[rmpr97]

(Original post by Tpos)
God is the most forgiving *and the most just*

If someone has not heard about Islam and do not get the chance to learn about it then that is different.
But if someone does have a chance to learn but isn't open minded enough/just doesn't bother then such a person can't really blame it on not knowing.

The Quran tells it's readers to NOT blindly follow your fathers and forefathers. It tells you to use your own brain.

But how are you meant to knowingly choose a religions when there's about hundreds of them (7 mainstream one I can think off) and none of them have an ounce of logical, believable evidence to them? And then your ultimate forgiving god wont forgive me. If he appears to me or when I die I see him, sure, I'll convert, but now when there's no evidence, I'm good.

[JammyChoos]

(Original post by Politricks)
Qur'an 67:5




Only shows what an appalling person you are, defacing a Qur'an is worse than death threats, violence and murder?

Thats not what I said so stop your pathetic attempt to twist my words. Why would someone deface the Quran? To threaten muslims, to make them feel inferior?
People dont threaten others for no reason....unless your a psycho.


67:5 ) We have adorned the lower
heaven
*9 with lamps,
*10 and have made them a means
to drive away the satans.


That is open to interpretation and is not always taken literally!!