[JammyChoos]

(Original post by Xotol)
Don't you believe that Allah will deal with it in the end? Riots, death threats and attacks, on the other hand, are actions which can harm other people now.

This. 99% of muslim think like this including me. We muslims ARE hurt when the Quran is defaced. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN we like to kill other people or embrace death which a lot people seem to think.

The only example i can think of i the man who lost his son in the birmingham riots. He forgave the killer AND stopped the riots

[Politricks]

(Original post by JammyChoos)
Thats not what I said so stop your pathetic attempt to twist my words. Why would someone deface the Quran? To threaten muslims, to make them feel inferior?
People dont threaten others for no reason....unless your a psycho.


67:5 ) We have adorned the lower
heaven
*9 with lamps,
*10 and have made them a means
to drive away the satans.


That is open to interpretation and is not always taken literally!!

No, that is exactly what you meant, I haven't twisted the meaning of your words in any way.
You said:

As a muslim, obviously im going to say defacing the Qu'ran is worse. but that doesnt mean causing riots is okay either

So you believe that defacing a Qur'an is worse than violence, riots, death threats and murders?
Of course people threaten people with a reason, but threatening somebody with death, severely harming them, or even killing them for defacing a book is just silly and uncivil.

[JammyChoos]

(Original post by Politricks)
Of course people threaten people with a reason, but threatening somebody with death, severely harming them, or even killing them for defacing a book is just silly and uncivil.

Im not saying that people dying is okay. It will never be okay. Im not trying to say that what terrorists like Bin Laden did were fine. It wasnt and isnt and they are extremists who try to make others (the more civilised people) look bad.
Whats silly and uncivil is defacing a book. And if it is just a book to you then why the big deal? Why do you constantly harrass other muslims for something one person did? If your annoyed go harrass the people who actually committed the crime.

5:32
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

[Politricks]

(Original post by JammyChoos)
Im not saying that people dying is okay. It will never be okay. Im not trying to say that what terrorists like Bin Laden did were fine. It wasnt and isnt and they are extremists who try to make others (the more civilised people) look bad.
Whats silly and uncivil is defacing a book. And if it is just a book to you then why the big deal? Why do you constantly harrass other muslims for something one person did? If your annoyed go harrass the people who actually committed the crime.

5:32
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

I didn't say you said that people dying is okay, I know that, however, I'm extremely appalled and shocked that you believe that defacing a Qur'an is worse than riots, death threats, violence and death because of the defacing of Qur'ans. I'm not even talking about Bin Laden, by the way.

What's the big deal? The fact that it's just a book, and people have threatened others with death, severely harmed them, or even killed them just for defacing a book is exactly what the big deal is about.

[Truthman]

(Original post by Llewellyn_J)
I am curious about what muslims generally think to this issue. In recent years, there have been some news stories where defacing of the Qu'ran made public has led to some Muslims reacting with riots and attacks. By no means am i saying every Muslim is like this, but I am going to ask anyway...

To muslims: Who do you think is more in the wrong? Those that deface/dis-respect the Qu'ran and Islam, or the muslims that respond with riots, violence and death-threats.

Actually, people were killed and even beheaded in Afghanistan over something what happened in america. This how muslims react, yet they have the nerve to say islam is a religion of peace. They say it is a religion of peace because clearly it is not a religion or peaceful. Saying its a religion of peace is an attempt to dumb down westerners from knowing the truth about islam:

At least seven United Nations workers are dead, including two who were beheaded, after officials said a protest in Afghanistan of a Florida pastor's burning of the Quran turned violent Friday, http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/U...119077794.html

This is what the muslims do wherever they are:

Nigeria: Police in Gombe arrested sixteen suspects after a Muslim mob stoned, stripped, beat, and finally stabbed to death a Christian teacher, Christiana Oluwatoyin Oluwasesin, after she caught a student cheating on an exam in March. Her body was then burned beyond recognition by the mob who falsely accused her of desecrating a Quran. http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...inst_chri.html


A RELIGIOUS TEACHER DARED TO DO HIS JOB AND TEACH MUSLIM GIRLS “OTHER RELIGIONS”…..Armed with an iron rod and brick, they punched, kicked and attacked Mr Smith slashing him on his face, leaving him unconscious covered in blood on the pavement in Burdett Road, Tower Hamlets, East London. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1NJvUpSkO


Yet at the same time, islamists globally are calling for the destruction of the christianity and the west, yet we are not supposed to even say anything about it:

Sheik Farook al-Mohammedi and his group United Muslim Nations International has released their plan in a 23 page booklet to rid the world of Christianity, “wipe Christianity from the face of the earth,” Islamize the West and establish an Islamic system of world government – placing those who resist “under a police state.” http://guardianlv.com/2012/07/muslim...-christianity/

TORONTO - An Islamic bookstore in east Toronto is selling books that urge Muslims to usurp the Western world and install an Islamic State in its place.
The books, written by deceased Islamic scholar Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi – are available at the Islamic Circle of North America bookstore in Scarborough.
“Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation that rules it,” Maududi wrote in Jihad in Islam. “Islam requires the earth – not just a portion – but the whole planet.”
Maududi was an influential Pakistani journalist, theologian and Muslim revivalist leader who wrote more than 120 books and pamphlets and lived from 1903 to 1979. http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/30...ale-in-toronto


Dr. Wafa Sultan, psychiatrist, Syrian-born former Muslim, explains: “Islam is not a religion. Islam is a very dangerous political ideology” (Former Muslims United, 20th February 2010). http://formermuslimsunited.org/?cat=64&paged=2 http://britishfreedom.org/islam-dest...-civilisation/


Heres an islamic fatwa site saying its ok to use the bible as toilet paper, yet you dont see christians killing innocent muslims in revenge:

Fatwa that says its ok to use the bible as toilet paper:

[Truthman]

(Original post by Politricks)
No, that is exactly what you meant, I haven't twisted the meaning of your words in any way.
You said:

So you believe that defacing a Qur'an is worse than violence, riots, death threats and murders?
Of course people threaten people with a reason, but threatening somebody with death, severely harming them, or even killing them for defacing a book is just silly and uncivil.

but threatening somebody with death, severely harming them, or even killing them for defacing a book is just silly and uncivil.

Its actually pure evil when you consider that muslims (real muslims = koran based) have no problem destroying sacred things that belong to other people:

Islamist Group in Timbuktu Poised To Destroy Rare Centuries-Old Texts on Science and Mathematics http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_te...timbuktu_.html


But the truth is, this is the islamic mentality that is taught in all the foundational islamic books, and all those who think otherwise are in for a shock.

[JammyChoos]

(Original post by Politricks)

What's the big deal? The fact that it's just a book, and people have threatened others with death, severely harmed them, or even killed them just for defacing a book is exactly what the big deal is about.

WHY dont you understand what im saying??? lol
Let me be as clear as I can.
its a book to you because you dont believe in it. right?
To muslims, its more than just a book. Its the word of God.
So you need to understand that us muslims WILL be annoyed if you disrespect our book some more so than others. HOWEVER, NOT EVERY MUSLIM WILL SUDDENLY KILL SOMEONE FOR THAT REASON. THOSE WHO DO HAVE BEEN UNDER A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE as the Quran doesnt say kill everyone . What it sounds like to me is that your trying to make every muslim pay the price for what someone else has done. You want everyone to abandon their beliefs just because it doesnt make sense to you.

Now if Im misunderstood them please tell me.

[123maz]

(Original post by Llewellyn_J)
I am curious about what muslims generally think to this issue. In recent years, there have been some news stories where defacing of the Qu'ran made public has led to some Muslims reacting with riots and attacks. By no means am i saying every Muslim is like this, but I am going to ask anyway...

To muslims: Who do you think is more in the wrong? Those that deface/dis-respect the Qu'ran and Islam, or the muslims that respond with riots, violence and death-threats.

Well I am a muslim myself and i think whats worse is the defacing of the holy Qu'ran. This is our revelation FROM God and for someone to deface this is very insulting.

The death threats are extreme but you tell me where does rioting get you?

[Politricks]

(Original post by JammyChoos)
WHY dont you understand what im saying??? lol
Let me be as clear as I can.
its a book to you because you dont believe in it. right?
To muslims, its more than just a book. Its the word of God.
So you need to understand that us muslims WILL be annoyed if you disrespect our book some more so than others. HOWEVER, NOT EVERY MUSLIM WILL SUDDENLY KILL SOMEONE FOR THAT REASON. THOSE WHO DO HAVE BEEN UNDER A DIFFERENT INFLUENCE as the Quran doesnt say kill everyone . What it sounds like to me is that your trying to make every muslim pay the price for what someone else has done. You want everyone to abandon their beliefs just because it doesnt make sense to you.

Now if Im misunderstood them please tell me.

I understand what you mean.
I know that your book is special to you, in the same way that souvenirs and portraits of Kim Jong-Il to a North Korean soldier would be special.

No, I'm not making all Muslims pay the price for what a few horrible Muslims have done, show me one thing that I said which makes it sound that way? I'm not painting Muslims with the same brush, where have I done that?

Do I want everybody to abandon their beliefs? Yes, I want all religion gone, I make no secret of that, no Atheist makes a secret of that. However, I'd be appalled and shocked if religion was forcefully abolished.

[JammyChoos]

(Original post by Politricks)
I understand what you mean.
I know that your book is special to you, in the same way that souvenirs and portraits of Kim Jong-Il to a North Korean soldier would be special.

No, I'm not making all Muslims pay the price for what a few horrible Muslims have done, show me one thing that I said which makes it sound that way? I'm not painting Muslims with the same brush, where have I done that?

Do I want everybody to abandon their beliefs? Yes, I want all religion gone, I make no secret of that, no Atheist makes a secret of that. However, I'd be appalled and shocked if religion was forcefully abolished.

Thank You. Finally something we can agree on lol

[Banishingboredom]

To be honest I think people are quite offended by poppy burning protests, but you don't get rioting and killing in response. Also I don't think the Americans take to kindly to their flag being burnt, and I think you can be arrested for it, but you don't get angry mobs lynching people.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1648970.html

These actions should never be acceptable.

[Flash7]

(Original post by Banishingboredom)
To be honest I think people are quite offended by poppy burning protests, but you don't get rioting and killing in response. Also I don't think the Americans take to kindly to their flag being burnt, and I think you can be arrested for it, but you don't get angry mobs lynching people.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1648970.html

These actions should never be acceptable.

I read the story from the link that you had provided and the story infuriated me! Everyone should read this story. WTF is wrong with people?

Muslims who read this story will say, those who acted out violently are not "real" Muslims, while the Muslims who acted out would say that those who "do nothing" to protect the word of Allah are not real Muslims.

[KnowledgeHunter]

I wish there comes a day when everyone can get on in life without all these unnecessary arguments and peace.

I'm trying to have a neutral say in here. Surely non-Muslims can study Islam thoroughly and in-depth without biased views from either side before criticizing Muslims. Likewise, surely Muslims (the Jihadists, Islamist etc) can stop attempting to force Islam on others via violence, and try to understand what the non-Muslims are saying before criticizing them.

Oh well, one can dream...

[Tackla]

If people didnt deface Quran then there would be no violence. Simples

[S-man10]

(Original post by Tackla)
If people didnt deface Quran then there would be no violence. Simples

If muslims understood the emotion of anger, and were therefore able to control it, we would have no violence

[KnowledgeHunter]

(Original post by S-man10)
If some muslims understood the emotion of anger, and were therefore able to control it, we would have no violence

There, corrected!

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by S-man10)
If muslims understood the emotion of anger, and were therefore able to control it, we would have no violence

True. But even if all the Muslims controlled their anger and didn't respond with violence, we would still be in a situation where a lot of people are feeling angry, insulted or victimised.
Whereas if people weren't (making a public show of) defacing the Qur'an in the first place, we would neither have violence, nor would we have 1/4 of the world feeling offended and resenting those who do this kind of thing.

And so it appears that the optimal, win-win situation is found by people restricting themselves from their Qur'an defacing to begin with, rather than by Muslims restricting themselves from expressing their resulting feelings. Rather than making someone angry and expecting them to control their feelings, it's probably better not to make them angry in the first place if possible.

[ash92:)]

(Original post by Truthman)
Actually, people were killed and even beheaded in Afghanistan over something what happened in america. This how muslims react, yet they have the nerve to say islam is a religion of peace. They say it is a religion of peace because clearly it is not a religion or peaceful. Saying its a religion of peace is an attempt to dumb down westerners from knowing the truth about islam:

At least seven United Nations workers are dead, including two who were beheaded, after officials said a protest in Afghanistan of a Florida pastor's burning of the Quran turned violent Friday, http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/U...119077794.html

This is what the muslims do wherever they are:

Nigeria: Police in Gombe arrested sixteen suspects after a Muslim mob stoned, stripped, beat, and finally stabbed to death a Christian teacher, Christiana Oluwatoyin Oluwasesin, after she caught a student cheating on an exam in March. Her body was then burned beyond recognition by the mob who falsely accused her of desecrating a Quran. http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...inst_chri.html


A RELIGIOUS TEACHER DARED TO DO HIS JOB AND TEACH MUSLIM GIRLS “OTHER RELIGIONS”…..Armed with an iron rod and brick, they punched, kicked and attacked Mr Smith slashing him on his face, leaving him unconscious covered in blood on the pavement in Burdett Road, Tower Hamlets, East London. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1NJvUpSkO


Yet at the same time, islamists globally are calling for the destruction of the christianity and the west, yet we are not supposed to even say anything about it:

Sheik Farook al-Mohammedi and his group United Muslim Nations International has released their plan in a 23 page booklet to rid the world of Christianity, “wipe Christianity from the face of the earth,” Islamize the West and establish an Islamic system of world government – placing those who resist “under a police state.” http://guardianlv.com/2012/07/muslim...-christianity/

TORONTO - An Islamic bookstore in east Toronto is selling books that urge Muslims to usurp the Western world and install an Islamic State in its place.
The books, written by deceased Islamic scholar Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi – are available at the Islamic Circle of North America bookstore in Scarborough.
“Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation that rules it,” Maududi wrote in Jihad in Islam. “Islam requires the earth – not just a portion – but the whole planet.”
Maududi was an influential Pakistani journalist, theologian and Muslim revivalist leader who wrote more than 120 books and pamphlets and lived from 1903 to 1979. http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/30...ale-in-toronto


Dr. Wafa Sultan, psychiatrist, Syrian-born former Muslim, explains: “Islam is not a religion. Islam is a very dangerous political ideology” (Former Muslims United, 20th February 2010). http://formermuslimsunited.org/?cat=64&paged=2 http://britishfreedom.org/islam-dest...-civilisation/


Heres an islamic fatwa site saying its ok to use the bible as toilet paper, yet you dont see christians killing innocent muslims in revenge:

Fatwa that says its ok to use the bible as toilet paper:

No offence, but I found your post quite funny. You mentioned actions done by "Muslims" that don't comply with Islam. If you actually study Islam, you will realise that Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not respond to criticism with violence, but only went to war after being forced out of his home along with the handful of muslims that had survived aggression from the non-muslim arabs.
An example from hadeeth is that of Utba bin Rabi'a when he was sent to insult Muhammad (peace be upon him). All he heard in reply was recitation of the Quran, which overwhelmed him to the extent that he returned to Abu Jahl
reduced to tears.

Whereas violence is concerned:

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.



Regarding the previous Holy scriptures:

5:46 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.[/I]

Other than this, one needs no more to decide using common sense that using the Bible as toilet paper is NOT JUSTIFIED.

(Original post by tazarooni89)
True. But even if all the Muslims controlled their anger and didn't respond with violence, we would still be in a situation where a lot of people are feeling angry, insulted or victimised.
Whereas if people weren't (making a public show of) defacing the Qur'an in the first place, we would neither have violence, nor would we have 1/4 of the world feeling offended and resenting those who do this kind of thing.

And so it appears that the optimal, win-win situation is found by people restricting themselves from their Qur'an defacing to begin with, rather than by Muslims restricting themselves from expressing their resulting feelings. Rather than making someone angry and expecting them to control their feelings, it's probably better not to make them angry in the first place if possible.

I agree, tazarooni

[Flash7]

(Original post by ash92:))
No offence, but I found your post quite funny. You mentioned actions done by "Muslims" that don't comply with Islam. If you actually study Islam, you will realise that Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not respond to criticism with violence, but only went to war after being forced out of his home along with the handful of muslims that had survived aggression from the non-muslim arabs.
An example from hadeeth is that of Utba bin Rabi'a when he was sent to insult Muhammad (peace be upon him). All he heard in reply was recitation of the Quran, which overwhelmed him to the extent that he returned to Abu Jahl
reduced to tears.

Whereas violence is concerned:

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.





Regarding the previous Holy scriptures:

5:46 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

Other than this, one needs no more to decide using common sense that using the Bible as toilet paper is NOT JUSTIFIED.




I agree, tazarooni

I think that you are slightly missing the point here. I agree with you and Tazarooni that no one should intentially burn the Qu'ran or "use the Bible as toilet paper." However, the difference is that if these acts were to happen, some Muslims lose their minds and go crazy. They go so crazy that they pose death threats, or actually kill people for simply ripping pages out of a book. This, coupled with many other acts, is the irrational behavior that paints Muslims in a bad light. You can say that those who act out violently are acting against the teachings of Islam, but nonetheless, on a day-to-day basis, they are regular Muslims practicing their beliefs and they wouldn't be any different than other practicing Muslims. However, something happens that challenges their beliefs, and in the name of Allah, to protect his WORD, they act out violently, sometimes killing in the name of Allah. This is a problem, is it not?

[Algorithm69]

(Original post by Tackla)
If everyone did exactly as Muslims say then there would be no violence. Simples

Fixed it for you.