[Study]

(Original post by Steevee)
Question.

Would you think people were in the right, or on the same level of wrong, for rioting and killing people over the defacement of Mein Kampf?

Because there are plenty of people, myself included, who find many of the views expressed in the Quran rather abhorrent. Should we not be allowed to express our views in the same way Muslims are allowed to express theirs? To put a finer point on it, are you ok with Muslims burning works by Salman Rushdie, Hitchens or Dawkins? Personally I find the Quran rather objectionable and if it's in my property I should be able to deal with it as I see fit, without fear of a Muslim mob. So in a final question, do you honestly believe burning a single book is equally objectionable as a mob looting, maiming and killing?

oh and they are all in the wrong, although I've never really read Mein Kampf so really do not what Hitler said in there exactly.

[Cerdog]

(Original post by Study)
Sure isn't justified, but why would you knowingly go do something like that, when you already know how some might react, its just stupid.

It is a bit stupid, but you should be allowed to express an opinion without having to fear for your life.

[Study]

(Original post by Cerdog)
It is a bit stupid, but you should be allowed to express an opinion without having to fear for your life.

Yeh lets go and knowingly seriously offend 1.5bill+ people.
Very logical.
Then moan about the reactions later.

[squeakypop]

(Original post by Algorithm69)
What an absolutely disgusting viewpoint. How dare you say that uttering words and expressing an opinion that are potentially offensive is a more immoral act than physical attacks and destruction of property. What planet do you live on? I'm utterly in shock that I just read this on a forum for students.

EDIT: The amount of negs this is getting is truly terrifying. I can't believe so many people on this forum hold such barbaric and backward viewpoints.

You take a naive viewpoint on this. It compares violation of someone's intimate beliefs to damage to material property. Of course, economically and perhaps socially the attacks and damage are worse. But insulting and demeaning another's religion is horrific, and has the potential to cause, at best, embarrassment, and at worst depression, withdrawal etc.

Anyway, this isn't about just 'uttering words' and 'expressing a view point'. Obviously riots and the like are far worse than someone saying 'this book is silly', but the defacing and destruction of a sacred texts runs much deeper than that.

Even with your view point, surely the defacing is worse because it is the cause of the rest?

[mariachi]

(Original post by Study)
oh and they are all in the wrong, although I've never really read Mein Kampf so really do not what Hitler said in there exactly.

part of it is actually quite interesting

Hitler gives a (rather idealized) account of his youth, and then goes on to outline his plans for Germany - they should have been taken more seriously by the "appeasers"

some pages, criticizing the failures of parliamentary democracy, are even not that stupid

parts of it are hopelessly boring

[mariachi]

(Original post by squeakypop)
insulting and demeaning another's religion is horrific,

I don't see why religions should enjoy a special status and protection - some religions are actually cruel and oppressive. Why should they enjoy special protection ?

especially a religion like Islam, which embodies both a religion in traditional sense, as well as a comprehensive social organization and a political programme, should not enjoy more protection than other political ideologies, such as liberalism, communism etc

[Steevee]

(Original post by Study)
You people still do not get it is just not a "book" for about 1.5b+ people.
Wouldn't really waste money buying the other books to burn, burning them is just showing that "they got to you" in some way.

But the thing is....it is just a book.

There's plenty of them around, I'm not destroying anything but my own property if I choose to burn a Quran. So let me ask you again. Do you honestly believe that the burning of a single book is equally as objectionable as thousands rioting, maiming and killing?

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Steevee)
Question.

Would you think people were in the right, or on the same level of wrong, for rioting and killing people over the defacement of Mein Kampf?

Because there are plenty of people, myself included, who find many of the views expressed in the Quran rather abhorrent. Should we not be allowed to express our views in the same way Muslims are allowed to express theirs? To put a finer point on it, are you ok with Muslims burning works by Salman Rushdie, Hitchens or Dawkins? Personally I find the Quran rather objectionable and if it's in my property I should be able to deal with it as I see fit, without fear of a Muslim mob. So in a final question, do you honestly believe burning a single book is equally objectionable as a mob looting, maiming and killing?

In general, I don't think there's anything wrong with burning any book, even if it's the Qur'an, Bible, Mein Kampf, The Satanic Verses, The God Delusion, or whatever. If it's your property you can do whatever you like with it.

The point at which I start to consider it to be wrong is when people do it specifically with the intention of trying to offend and provoke a reaction out of others, or knowing full well that it will provoke such a reaction. As I said, nobody really cares if you just burn your own Qur'ans in your own home. But this is the reason why it is done in public, as part of a demonstration. And I think if you are actively and intentionally trying to get other people to start rioting, then you're no better than the rioters themselves - just as a man who hires an assassin to murder someone is no better than the assassin himself.

Muslims themselves burn Qur'ans all the time - it's a fairly standard way of disposing of old or unwanted ones. But it is not the action itself which is objectionable, rather the intent with which it is done - and I'd say the same about burning any book.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Cerdog)
It may not be morally right to do so, but killing people because of it is far worse. It's like if you went up to someone who supported, say, Blackburn Rovers and said "Everyone who supports Blackburn is scum", and then they stabbed you to death. What you did perhaps wasn't very nice, but their response isn't justified at all.

As I said, it depends on the intention behind the action.
For example, if I went up to a group of Blackburn Rovers supporters and said "Cerdog thinks Blackburn supports are scum" in the hope that they will stab you to death, then I think that's just as bad as simply stabbing you to death.

Similarly, I think that burning a book in the hope that people will react violently, then I think that is just as bad as actually acting violently. Either way, you're deliberately causing violence.

[Dumb Economist]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
In general, I don't think there's anything wrong with burning any book, even if it's the Qur'an, Bible, Mein Kampf, The Satanic Verses, The God Delusion, or whatever. If it's your property you can do whatever you like with it.

The point at which I start to consider it to be wrong is when people do it specifically with the intention of trying to offend and provoke a reaction out of others, or knowing full well that it will provoke such a reaction. As I said, nobody really cares if you just burn your own Qur'ans in your own home. But this is the reason why it is done in public, as part of a demonstration. And I think if you are actively and intentionally trying to get other people to start rioting, then you're no better than the rioters themselves - just as a man who hires an assassin to murder someone is no better than the assassin himself.

Muslims themselves burn Qur'ans all the time - it's a fairly standard way of disposing of old or unwanted ones. But it is not the action itself which is objectionable, rather the intent with which it is done - and I'd say the same about burning any book.

With highest respect to all religion.... I still fail to fathom, how 1.5b people can get offended just because someone who is non-muslim who may be 0.000001% of the non muslim population decide to burn his personal copy of Quran even intentionally in public. Are you feeling so insecure about your faith. I have seen hundreds of clips and pictures of other country flags being burned in Muslim world.... isn't it the same.

[Steevee]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
In general, I don't think there's anything wrong with burning any book, even if it's the Qur'an, Bible, Mein Kampf, The Satanic Verses, The God Delusion, or whatever. If it's your property you can do whatever you like with it.

The point at which I start to consider it to be wrong is when people do it specifically with the intention of trying to offend and provoke a reaction out of others, or knowing full well that it will provoke such a reaction. As I said, nobody really cares if you just burn your own Qur'ans in your own home. But this is the reason why it is done in public, as part of a demonstration. And I think if you are actively and intentionally trying to get other people to start rioting, then you're no better than the rioters themselves - just as a man who hires an assassin to murder someone is no better than the assassin himself.

Muslims themselves burn Qur'ans all the time - it's a fairly standard way of disposing of old or unwanted ones. But it is not the action itself which is objectionable, rather the intent with which it is done - and I'd say the same about burning any book.

And what if the intent is not to inflame, but to show distatse? That is why I would burn a Quran in public. I abhor what is in it, and here is what I think of it. I have no intention to incite Muslims to riot, if they do, that is their issue not mine. My sole intent would be to show my distatse for the book. The same way people take to the streets with banners and burn effigies.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Steevee)
And what if the intent is not to inflame, but to show distatse? That is why I would burn a Quran in public. I abhor what is in it, and here is what I think of it. I have no intention to incite Muslims to riot, if they do, that is their issue not mine. My sole intent would be to show my distatse for the book. The same way people take to the streets with banners and burn effigies.

Again, it depends.

If I'm playing music in my flat really loudly in the middle of the night and waking up the neighbours, even if my actual intention was just to enjoy music and not to disturb the neigbours, I would still be considered to have done something wrong - since a reasonable person in that position would have expected the neighbours to be disturbed, yet I ignored this and decided to do it anyway.
Similarly, it depends on the circumstances under which you're burning things. Even if your actual intention is just to show distaste, if it is done in such a way that a reasonable person would expect rioting to be the result of that, but you were still happy to go ahead and burn it anyway regardless, then I would again say it is just as bad (or perhaps almost as bad) - in a neglectful sense rather than an active sense.

Whereas if you were burning a Qur'an on the street just with the intention of showing distaste, but genuinely had no idea that people might riot as a result (and you could not reasonably be expected to know this), then I would say that what you have done is not as bad as what the rioters are doing.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Dumb Economist)
With highest respect to all religion.... I still fail to fathom, how 1.5b people can get offended just because someone who is non-muslim who may be 0.000001% of the non muslim population decide to burn his personal copy of Quran even intentionally in public. Are you feeling so insecure about your faith. I have seen hundreds of clips and pictures of other country flags being burned in Muslim world.... isn't it the same.

Well during this sort of era, many Muslims actually do feel quite insecure - not of their faith, but of their acceptance in the world as a group of people. Many people have been institutionally oppressed or treated unjustly in the past on various pretexts - Jews, black people etc.

What with the recent negative portrayals of Muslims found in the media (far more commonly than a few decades ago), with recent illegal wars being declared upon Muslim countries, with various political parties actively expressing anti-Islamic agendas in recent times - yes, many Muslims are feeling insecure, thinking that perhaps their time has come, to be the world's new scapegoat, just as the Jews were during World War II (for this is how it started off for them as well).

So I think this is the reason why you'll find that nowadays, Muslims are going to seem a lot more insecure and sensitive about this kind of thing - much more than they would have been a few decades ago. It's for a similar reason as to why you'll find that in our society and in many US states, racism against black people is taken more seriously and considered more offensive than racism against chinese people - because of a continued insecurity, the after-effects of the way black people have been treated not long ago.

[Dumb Economist]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Well during this sort of era, many Muslims actually do feel quite insecure - not of their faith, but of their acceptance in the world as a group of people. Many people have been institutionally oppressed or treated unjustly in the past on various pretexts - Jews, black people etc.

What with the recent negative portrayals of Muslims found in the media (far more commonly than a few decades ago), with recent illegal wars being declared upon Muslim countries, with various political parties actively expressing anti-Islamic agendas in recent times - yes, many Muslims are feeling insecure, thinking that perhaps their time has come, to be the world's new scapegoat, just as the Jews were during World War II (for this is how it started off for them as well).

So I think this is the reason why you'll find that nowadays, Muslims are going to seem a lot more insecure and sensitive about this kind of thing - much more than they would have been a few decades ago.

I am bit surprised by your statement... being the second largest religion in the world and growing .... I would have thought feeling insecure should be the last thing. Rationally I think the so called 'illegal' wars you mention ...brought some unity and reprieve to the sectarian war ridden society ... especially in the gulf.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Dumb Economist)
I am bit surprised by your statement... being the second largest religion in the world and growing .... I would have thought feeling insecure should be the last thing.

It's not so much about the size of the religion, but about the power and influence that those people have - i.e. not that much. Even though "the West" might be much smaller in terms of population, compared to the number of Muslims in the world - realistically it would be very easy for Western countries to oppress Islamic countries and Muslims if they wanted to.

Rationally I think the so called 'illegal' wars you mention ...brought some unity and reprieve to the sectarian war ridden society ... especially in the gulf.

Well you can think that if you like, but I'm sure you know lots of Muslims don't see it that way. Debating who is right about it isn't the topic for this thread. But the relevant point is that it does contribute to the fact that many Muslims in those areas feel very hard done by.

[Dumb Economist]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
It's not so much about the size of the religion, but about the power and influence that those people have - i.e. not that much. Even though "the West" might be much smaller in terms of population, compared to the number of Muslims in the world - realistically it would be very easy for Western countries to oppress Islamic countries and Muslims if they wanted to.



Well you can think that if you like, but I'm sure you know lots of Muslims don't see it that way. Debating who is right about it isn't the topic for this thread. But the relevant point is that it does contribute to the fact that many Muslims in those areas feel very hard done by.

I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim nor originally from West. I think you are imagining lot more power than really it is for the west. I also do not think an average western citizen thinks in term oppressing any Islamic or any Non Christian country. Secondly in all the 'illegal' wars there was support to the aggression from the neighbouring muslim countries. Hence should not be looked at as aggression against a religion.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Dumb Economist)
I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim nor originally from West. I think you are imagining lot more power than really it is for the west. I also do not think an average western citizen thinks in term oppressing any Islamic or any Non Christian country.

Yes but this isn't about how the average western citizen thinks, it's about how the average Muslim thinks, and what the situation looks like from their point of view. It's their insecurity we're discussing, isn't it?

Secondly in all the 'illegal' wars there was support to the aggression from the neighbouring muslim countries. Hence should be looked at as aggression against a religion.

I don't really understand this sentence. What do you mean?
And as I said earlier, you may think that. But the relevant point is that many Muslims do not see it that way. To them it just looks as though the US and UK troops are occupying and invading where they aren't wanted. And it is their perspective on the matter which counts in this discussion.

[Cerdog]

(Original post by Study)
Yeh lets go and knowingly seriously offend 1.5bill+ people.
Very logical.
Then moan about the reactions later.

You are missing the point completely. Obviously it's not a good idea to do something that will clearly end badly, but in this case, you should be able to (for example) insult the Qu'ran or draw Mohammed without people reacting so violently. The people rioting and killing people are far more in the wrong. Freedom of speech is an important right.

Do you think the violence or Qu'ran burning is worse?

(Original post by tazarooni89)
As I said, it depends on the intention behind the action.
For example, if I went up to a group of Blackburn Rovers supporters and said "Cerdog thinks Blackburn supports are scum" in the hope that they will stab you to death, then I think that's just as bad as simply stabbing you to death.

Similarly, I think that burning a book in the hope that people will react violently, then I think that is just as bad as actually acting violently. Either way, you're deliberately causing violence.

Doing what you said it certainly worse than what I mentioned before, but it definitely isn't as bad as actually stabbing me to death. When you say the words, you haven't actually done anything particularly "wrong" at that point (at least to the degree where it affects me).

There's a fine line between burning a book in the hope that people will react violently, burning a book in the hope that people will be offended, and burning a book because you disapprove of its contents. I doubt many of the people who have burnt the Qu'ran in the past have done so for the first reason.

[kitty101]

No I wouldn't because Islam has made it pretty clear that murder is absolutely 100% wrong unless it's in self defence i.e. a battle or something. You're not harming me your just curious lol

But I don't understand how you have become atheist I was agnostic for a phase I wasn't 100% sure what I believed in but without religion everything just felt hopeless for me.

So I wonder how it must feel thinking that God doesn't exist. Doesn't the world just seem so bleak and full of darkness and sorrow?

[Dumb Economist]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Yes but this isn't about how the average western citizen thinks, it's about how the average Muslim thinks, and what the situation looks like from their point of view. It's their insecurity we're discussing, isn't it?



I don't really understand this sentence. What do you mean?
And as I said earlier, you may think that. But the relevant point is that many Muslims do not see it that way. To them it just looks as though the US and UK troops are occupying and invading where they aren't wanted. And it is their perspective on the matter which counts in this discussion.

I did edit my last sentence... what I meant was ...as neighbouring Muslim countries supported the aggressor ... it should NOT be taken as aggression against a religion but against a particular ruler. But you are right only thing that is important is what an average Muslim thinks. But why Muslim population in Mass think like that is what I do not understand . May be some day I will.