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National minimum wage should be increased for u21's?

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  • View Poll Results: Should the nmw for 16 year olds be the same for 21 year olds?
    yes
    51.69%
    no
    48.31%

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    (Original post by MissLightyear)
    When I was trying to get a job I didnt think 'oh I know I'll get loads of my friends to apply too so Im not annoyed at someone getting paid more for the same job'. I just needed a job, which Im grateful for getting. My boss could only choose from those that had applied, and by the time it came to interviews those without experience were cut out. I did beat over 21s to the job, as well as people my own age.

    My boss cant exactly start sacking people that are over 21 just because Im worried about my pay. Plus the store only opened 6 years ago, theres a high turnover of staff and at the minute (apart from recent starters) its pretty much the same people from day one, so obviously theyre ove r21 but hes not going to sack them
    True, he can't sack them, but next time he has the opportunity he's going to advertise for replacement staff. Think, why is he paying you less? He could pay you the same as the others if he wants to be fair, but he wants to cut costs. Arguably your productivity/morale/loyalty is suffering because you know you're being paid less for the same work.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    True, he can't sack them, but next time he has the opportunity he's going to advertise for replacement staff. Think, why is he paying you less? He could pay you the same as the others if he wants to be fair, but he wants to cut costs. Arguably your productivity/morale/loyalty is suffering because you know you're being paid less for the same work.
    He has just taken on younger staff. The staff he can hire/give hours to depends on the stores takings. Its a large company and we're a small/poor area so head office makes him pay everyone minimum wage.

    I work harder than a few older members of staff I can think of because I need the job or I wont have a home. Of course, others have this issue but not all. I achieve higher than a lot of the older workers on KPIs (key performance indicators). There are others my age that are the same, outperforming the older workers but being paid less.

    I can understand under 18s being paid less as they have a lot of protection laws so arent as flexible/cause issues, but I believe 18+ should be paid the same
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    (Original post by MissLightyear)
    He has just taken on younger staff. The staff he can hire/give hours to depends on the stores takings. Its a large company and we're a small/poor area so head office makes him pay everyone minimum wage.

    I work harder than a few older members of staff I can think of because I need the job or I wont have a home. Of course, others have this issue but not all. I achieve higher than a lot of the older workers on KPIs (key performance indicators). There are others my age that are the same, outperforming the older workers but being paid less.

    I can understand under 18s being paid less as they have a lot of protection laws so arent as flexible/cause issues, but I believe 18+ should be paid the same
    The company you work for should pay you all the same, but the different minimum wages are there so that less experienced workers (due to their age) can undercut more experienced workers (due to their age) and hence get started in the world of work.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    The company you work for should pay you all the same, but the different minimum wages are there so that less experienced workers (due to their age) can undercut more experienced workers (due to their age) and hence get started in the world of work.
    But again, age does not always equal experience.
    Under current NMW laws, if a company pays minimum wage for a job, then a 22 year old who has no retail experience would be paid more than a 20 year old who has a couple of years experience.
    How does that make sense?
    If you want to modify pay based on experience, then base it on experience and not age.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    And what about 18-20 year olds?
    They're generally in further or higher education, or apprenticeships, so do not have the same level of availability as over 21s are assumed to have.



    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    But again, age does not always equal experience.
    Under current NMW laws, if a company pays minimum wage for a job, then a 22 year old who has no retail experience would be paid more than a 20 year old who has a couple of years experience.
    How does that make sense?
    If you want to modify pay based on experience, then base it on experience and not age.
    I'm pretty sure that experience leads to raises, which will decrease the disparity. However, if someone has no job experience at 22, then it is most likely because they have been in education and should be able to provide other bonuses based on their education.
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    No, it will lead to even more unemployment. If anything it should be reduced a little; people would rather work and earn something than earn nothing, right?
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    To increase their unemployment level?
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    (Original post by Popular-reject-x)
    [*]16/17 year olds can't work 'any' hours (between 10pm and 6am is a no-no)[/LIST]
    I think it's between 12am-5am they can't legally work, I used to work till midnight all the time when I was 16/17 in college.

    Whilst it does seem unfair that people who perform the same job get paid differently due to a fact they can't control (me for example - I'm a trainee manager, expected to perform additional tasks and given much more responsibility than others - but still get paid less than basic workers who are over 21), I feel the minimum wage helps younger people, especially 16-17 year olds, find employment in the first place, as companies are much more likely to hire people who will cost them less to pay.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    The company you work for should pay you all the same, but the different minimum wages are there so that less experienced workers (due to their age) can undercut more experienced workers (due to their age) and hence get started in the world of work.
    Whilst that makes sense, it doesnt always work that way. There's a 19 year old a the company that has had managerial experience in a similar store, yet still gets less than the less experienced older workers
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    (Original post by MissLightyear)
    Whilst that makes sense, it doesnt always work that way. There's a 19 year old a the company that has had managerial experience in a similar store, yet still gets less than the less experienced older workers
    It doesn't always, but it's easier for a business to check up on someone's age than their past experience, especially if they're applying for minimum wage stuff. And the 19 year old you mention is in a stronger and safer position than the older workers because they're on lower pay.
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    Yes it is about time this was increased, seems like it has not been raised now for a while?
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    Minimum wage is moronic. If you were to increase minimum wage for 16-year-olds, you honestly think they'll get paid more? No, they wouldn't be employed at all. It's better for a young kid to make SOME money rather than NO money. Also 16-year-olds tend to live with their parents, 21-year-olds tend to have already moved out and have more responsibilites.

    You'll find that a lot of people would work for less than minimum wage, but the government won't let them.
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    (Original post by KasanDude)
    Minimum wage is moronic. If you were to increase minimum wage for 16-year-olds, you honestly think they'll get paid more? No, they wouldn't be employed at all. It's better for a young kid to make SOME money rather than NO money. Also 16-year-olds tend to live with their parents, 21-year-olds tend to have already moved out and have more responsibilites.

    You'll find that a lot of people would work for less than minimum wage, but the government won't let them.
    They shouldn't work for less than minimum wage, nor even WANT to. Don't they realise they are selling themselves short?

    If you increase minimum wage, do it for all, then yes, 16 year olds would still get hired.
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    (Original post by ufo2012)
    They shouldn't work for less than minimum wage, nor even WANT to. Don't they realise they are selling themselves short?

    If you increase minimum wage, do it for all, then yes, 16 year olds would still get hired.
    Think of it this way. A company puts aside $400 each day to pay 16-year-olds for jobs like filing papers or something (doesn't really matter). Lets say that the minimum wage is $4 an hour for 16s, and the company needs the work done to be for 10 hours a day. That means that 10 16s will be paid $40 a day.

    The government decides to increase minimum wage to $5 an hour. This means that the alloted $400 a day will only give jobs to 8 16s rather than 10.

    While, yes, 8 of those employees have $10 extra dollars a day, 2 of them no longer have ANY money per day. They starve and die.

    How has this increase in minimum wage been for the betterment of society?

    I do understand that people should be paid fairly for the work they do, but you have to think about the negative aspect of raising minimum wage as well, because not always are there other jobs to take...
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    Are there not laws limiting the number of hours or what sort of hours a person under 18 can actually work? It might have just been company policy, but when i worked at McDonald's as a teenager under 18s could not work after midnight, so all the early afternoon shifts were taken by the under 18s then all of us over 18 found ourselves working unsociable hours so that the restaurant could save some money by employing under 18s cheaper, it was also the case on weekends, nearly every weekend, to the point where we were having to make fake reasons to put in the not available for work book just to have 1 weekend a month off.

    Pay under 18's the same as over 18's and under 18 employment would drop faster than a Chatham girls knickers, though really 18+ should be on the same pay as 21+ ...in my opinion.
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    (Original post by KasanDude)
    Think of it this way. A company puts aside $400 each day to pay 16-year-olds for jobs like filing papers or something (doesn't really matter). Lets say that the minimum wage is $4 an hour for 16s, and the company needs the work done to be for 10 hours a day. That means that 10 16s will be paid $40 a day.

    The government decides to increase minimum wage to $5 an hour. This means that the alloted $400 a day will only give jobs to 8 16s rather than 10.

    While, yes, 8 of those employees have $10 extra dollars a day, 2 of them no longer have ANY money per day. They starve and die.

    How has this increase in minimum wage been for the betterment of society?

    I do understand that people should be paid fairly for the work they do, but you have to think about the negative aspect of raising minimum wage as well, because not always are there other jobs to take...
    Why are we working in $ ?

    If the government increases minimum wage to 5, then the company will have to increase their pot to 500 a day to pay those same 10 workers.

    If the company feels they cannot do so, then they can only hire 8 workers, but those 8 workers will feel the pinch because they now have to do the work of 2 extra people - this will drive down morale and people will then become aware that company is no longer good to work for, because they make you work too hard.

    So the other alternative here is find other ways to save money - reduce subsidies on the staff canteen, amend staff discounts, whatever you can to keep those 10 workers on board and keep them paid at the rate of 5 an hour since it was increased.

    After all, this is why businesses forecast and plan, a minimum wage increase would not happen overnight.

    And if they fail to do this, or aren't good at planning or end up in the position of 8 staff and bad morale - then that business deserves its' hardship.

    Keep the workers happy and you will have a good business. Tip this balance and you are headed for mutiny.
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    (Original post by ufo2012)
    Why are we working in $ ?

    If the government increases minimum wage to 5, then the company will have to increase their pot to 500 a day to pay those same 10 workers.

    If the company feels they cannot do so, then they can only hire 8 workers, but those 8 workers will feel the pinch because they now have to do the work of 2 extra people - this will drive down morale and people will then become aware that company is no longer good to work for, because they make you work too hard.

    So the other alternative here is find other ways to save money - reduce subsidies on the staff canteen, amend staff discounts, whatever you can to keep those 10 workers on board and keep them paid at the rate of 5 an hour since it was increased.

    After all, this is why businesses forecast and plan, a minimum wage increase would not happen overnight.

    And if they fail to do this, or aren't good at planning or end up in the position of 8 staff and bad morale - then that business deserves its' hardship.

    Keep the workers happy and you will have a good business. Tip this balance and you are headed for mutiny.
    I'm on a US keyboard and I don't feel like changing my settings or doing a character input just to use the correct symbol. Just substitute the $ for the pound.

    I like how you assume this will in any way be bad for the businesses.

    Bad morale is irrelevant. If the work is not being done correctly as a result of the minimum wage increase, don't forget that the people who no longer have jobs because of the increase will happily go in and do the work that the remaining employees aren't doing well.

    Also, we're talking about 16-year-olds, so its not like the jobs they are hired to do will be essential to the company. This means that if the remaining 16s are not doing what is required at the quality that is required, the company will simply let all of them go. Now you have all 10 16s without pay.

    It's all about cost efficiency. In every possible scenario, an increase in minimum wage for 16-year-olds will benefit most, but devastate a small amount.
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    we cannot raise minimum wage in these tough economic times *alan sugar voice*
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    (Original post by KasanDude)
    It's all about cost efficiency. In every possible scenario, an increase in minimum wage for 16-year-olds will benefit most, but devastate a small amount.
    So the issue in the end is therefore... what exactly?

    It's all good by the sound of it.
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    (Original post by ufo2012)
    So the issue in the end is therefore... what exactly?

    It's all good by the sound of it.
    You can't rationalize directly causing some 16s to be unemployed just because it gives most of them an extra 10%.

    By this logic, tax should be forgone. Why should a small part of society (the rich) pay for a small increase in the standard of living for most (the poor)?

    Although, I'm getting a sense that we're getting off-topic. The original question was whether or not 16s should have the same minimum wage as 21s, which I don't think is fair.

    21s have more responsibilities (rent, food, transport). 16s usually have much less to worry about (they live with their parents). Also, if you were to make 16s have the same minimum wage as 21s, companies would ALWAYS hire the 21s, as companies would rationalize that the over 21s will be more responsible than 16s.

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