[tammie123]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
im aware that this crime has occurred in a minoritity of muslim families, but it has occurred - and in within varying ethnicities - turkish, paksitani, afgani etc. So its pertinent that the reason those familiy members committed the crime was islamic pressures. Its brought up becuase it is topical (shafeilia ahmed case) and also important - dont you think erdicating this attitude from muslim society i important?

Well it can't be an Islamic issue as killing your children for so called 'honour' goes against everything Islam stands for, 'kill not your children for fear of want'. Most of the countries you've mentioned are countries battling poverty which has inevitably lead to a lack of education, so that is most likely (along with societal pressures, not religious) the cause for this abhorrent crime. I agree with the last bit, and we need to start with improving the education systems in the poorest muslim countries to do so.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i dont beleive there are scriptual restrictions for sikhs or hindus to marry people of other religion ( both do in this country anyway) so there is no religious reason for parents to kill thier daughters.

There's no religious reasons in Islam to kill your daughter.

Lmao, you don't even try to hide how much of an Islamophobe you are Only reason I quote you is for these lulz

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
in islam scriputre strictly forbids a muslim girl to marry a sikh for example, and fathers, borthers can enforce islamic edict by killing the daughter

Again showing your "wisdom on Islamic theology" lol.

1. Parents can never ever, in any circumstance enforce the law. Be it in a Islamic state, a Non-Muslim country or a Muslim country. So that in itself completely rules "honor" killings out.

2. If a Muslim had an illegitimate relationship, it would count as fornication, in which the punishment isn't execution.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
( as they have done in reported cases) - hence the difference and why in this country most reported honour killing cases have come form muslim families ( of various ethnicites and therefore differnt cultures)

And I've proven everything you've just said wrong above.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by tammie123)
Well it can't be an Islamic issue as killing your children for so called 'honour' goes against everything Islam stands for, 'kill not your children for fear of want'. Most of the countries you've mentioned are countries battling poverty which has inevitably lead to a lack of education, so that is most likely (along with societal pressures, not religious) the cause for this abhorrent crime. I agree with the last bit, and we need to start with improving the education systems in the poorest muslim countries to do so.

Actually i wasnt referring to those countries ( though its probably relevant there too) i was referring to those ethnicities in the UK where cases have been brought to court - ie differnt cultures but same religious culture ie islam.

the correct quote you refer to is in its entirey 'kill not your children for fear of falling into poverty" which means dont kill them off jsut becuase you cant afford to keep them.
it doesnt prohibit killing people that apostate from islam - infact there are various examples in islam where killing people who leave islam is acceptable. equally islam teaching to regard islamic principles over and above your own family.

[Slushxx]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
You can still 'believe' and be agnostic... Agnosticism isn't like a separate option to atheism and theism...

Putting non believers aside I don't see why it should matter if a person is agnostic or gnostic...

Ok I should have been more specific, he was an agnostic atheist, you don't really hear Muslims going on about their agnosticism do you, so I thought that would have been enough in addition to the context of the question.

[tammie123]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Actually i wasnt referring to those countries ( though its probably relevant there too) i was referring to those ethnicities in the UK where cases have been brought to court - ie differnt cultures but same religious culture ie islam.

the correct quote you refer to is in its entirey 'kill not your children for fear of falling into poverty" which means dont kill them off jsut becuase you cant afford to keep them.
it doesnt prohibit killing people that apostate from islam - infact there are various examples in islam where killing people who leave islam is acceptable. equally islam teaching to regard islamic principles over and above your own family.

Well you can't argue that the people who do this aren't immigrants from the countries you have listed, and have been raised with a lack of education and etc. There no such thing as religious culture. Religion and culture are two different things. Infact, this sort of thing even happens in hindu households not just muslim, but no one blames it on their religion because everyone knows that the issue is cultural and due to a lack of education.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/...cle3340301.ece

"Kill not your children for fear of want. We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin." (17:31)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_oKXh2oy8E (watch this for apostacy)

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Slushxx)
Ok I should have been more specific, he was an agnostic atheist, you don't really hear Muslims going on about their agnosticism do you, so I thought that would have been enough in addition to the context of the question.

True but that doesn't mean you can't have a Muslim agnostic...
After all agnosticism is to do with believing there is no such evidence to price/disprove god not the belief in god. These are two different things...

[mariachi]

(Original post by Perseveranze)

2. If a Muslim had an illegitimate relationship, it would count as fornication, in which the punishment isn't execution.

this is true only if the Muslim in question is unmarried

for a married Muslim, the "hadd" (obligatory) punishment is -if the required conditions are met - execution by stoning

(Original post by Perseveranze)
And I've proven everything you've just said wrong above.

and I proved your point 2 above wrong

OK, now, go ahead : say that the required conditions for the "hadd" punishment are so strict that it almost never will be implemented etc etc but we all know that, in some cases, it was

nothing new under the sun

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by mariachi)
this is true only if the Muslim in question is unmarried

for a married Muslim, the "hadd" (obligatory) punishment is -if the required conditions are met - execution by stoning

Now you quote me with relevance. Unfortunately, due to your over- excitement, you haven't been able to read context properly.

We're talking about a Muslim marrying a Non-Muslim (in illegitimate circumstances), this is counted as fornication. If you are already married, then the courts wouldn't allow you to marry again illegally (it wouldn't even be recognized from an Islamic point of view), so it's impossible to commit adultery in this fashion.

Adultery is when you are already married and you go around having an affair with someone else. Fornication is when you're not married you have an affair. And any marriage that isn't recognized = fornication.

(Original post by mariachi)
and I proved your point 2 above wrong

Or you just made a fool of yourself.

(Original post by mariachi)
OK, now, go ahead : say that the required conditions for the "hadd" punishment are so strict that it almost never will be implemented etc etc but we all know that, in some cases, it was

nothing new under the sun

Glad you already know this, at least Answering-Islam has taught you some truth.

[tmrah1]

first Murder in Islam is forbidden and if a musslem man done it he done something forbidden and thay must Handed him over to police , so If my daughter or my sister is in A relationship with a non-Muslim man i will Advise her and Speak with him If he really wants her and loves her he must to Marry her Not to till lies that he love her just to sleep (do sex) with her than When he get Bored he Leaves her , and Of course no women wants that , so if he Proposed to her its okay and if he not , she will know that he dont want her for real , and she well stop talking to some one that lie to her ,

look you Must separat between the customs and traditions of some people and between islam , you dont go and see a musslem man do somthing bad and say this is islam , islam is bad that is Stupidity , you must go and read the quraan ( holy book of islam ) and understand it not judging islam by what some people do , i am not going to see some Christian people do bad things and say that what Their religion tells them to do , and if you want There are many stories similar to your stories,
There are Christian dad killed his daughter because she loved a Muslim man , These things hapend It is wrong and shows the thinking of the same person is wrong .

[Just Another Girly]

i would be scared ****less but i don't think they would ...you know kill me or anything

[shaybethxo]

it isn't just females. my ex (muslim) boyfriend was told not to go back to his home, his mosque, even his city until he had broken up with me. if he didn't, he was told by his dad that the family would kill him. there were many times he was hit for being with me, needless to say we broke up because it just wasn't worth him going through it.
it's sad, because people are bought up in the west but are expected to not become westernized.
i agree it's a culture thing, too. because i know muslim women who have married nonmuslim men and although it has caused friction, there was never any violence.

[s_axo]

My sisters done it, I've done it (though i'm hardly a musilm anymore). Mom doesn't take issue with it, and my sisters white christian boyfriend hangs out with my family and she cooks curry for him (haha)

[zubz91]

(Original post by s_axo)
My sisters done it, I've done it (though i'm hardly a musilm anymore). Mom doesn't take issue with it, and my sisters white christian boyfriend hangs out with my family and she cooks curry for him (haha)

you are not a muslim, a person cant be hardly a muslim.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Perseveranze)


Again showing your "wisdom on Islamic theology" lol.

1. Parents can never ever, in any circumstance enforce the law. Be it in a Islamic state, a Non-Muslim country or a Muslim country. So that in itself completely rules "honor" killings out.
.

Parents ( husbands) are instructed in islamic teachings directly to discipline and if necessarry beat the women in their households if they dony obey or behave 'islamically' this would include a daughter having a non muslim boyfriend and so the trigger for honour beating and killing cases in this country.

[Sammi_K?]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
I cant imagine in our society, a father saying " Son, you have done a good job washing my car today, i will not kill you ."

Being reassurred that we are not going to be killed by our families is something we non-muslim westeners just take for granted, so what you say occurs in a muslim household seems bizarre to even mention it.

First off her parent found out about Honor-Killing and then said the first thing that came to their mind. Her parent DIDN'T say that if she did marry a non-Muslim then she will be killed. They basically said that they wouldn't dream of killing their daughter. What is wrong with voicing your opinion/feelings? I thought we were ALLOWED to do that.

When I found out about honor killings I went up to my sister and said that there are people who kill the female in their family if she tries to marry a non-Muslim. How could anyone do that? Did I do something wrong with voicing my feelings about the topic? Is there some underlying motive you can find?

[mariachi]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Now you quote me with relevance. Unfortunately, due to your over- excitement, you haven't been able to read context properly.

We're talking about a Muslim marrying a Non-Muslim (in illegitimate circumstances), this is counted as fornication.

No. The discussion is more general, not limited to the case of a Muslim marrying a non-Muslim. This is what you posted :

(Original post by Perseveranze)

2. If a Muslim had an illegitimate relationship, it would count as fornication, in which the punishment isn't execution

We are talking about relationships between Muslims and non-Muslims (in particular Muslim females and non-Muslim men); we are also concentrating on honour killings, and the possibility that a Muslim woman's family resort to homicide in order to defend the family's honour.

If a married Muslim woman had an illegitimate relationship (whether with a Muslim or with a non-Muslim), most clearly this would qualify as adultery, and the hadd punishment would be applicable, if the necessary conditions are fulfilled (4 Muslim witnesses of good standing or confession; and for the Maliki, even simply pregnancy, e.g. if the husband was absent during the period of conception). The hadd punishment for adultery is execution by stoning.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
If you are already married, then the courts wouldn't allow you to marry again illegally (it wouldn't even be recognized from an Islamic point of view), so it's impossible to commit adultery in this fashion.

This is balderdash. In Islam, you don't need to go before a court in order to marry: marriage, basically, is a bilateral contract : it should be declared publicly, and it is customary to have an Imam involved, but this is not absolutely necessary, and the qadi (judge) is even less necessary for the nikah to take place.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Adultery is when you are already married and you go around having an affair with someone else. Fornication is when you're not married you have an affair. And any marriage that isn't recognized = fornication

tell us something we don't know.

But, in Islam, it's slightly more complex. In order to be liable to hadd punishment for adultery, you must be a "muhsan", (i.e. an adult, free, Muslim who has previously enjoyed legitimate sexual relations in matrimony)

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Or you just made a fool of yourself.

you are completely unable of discussing without attacking or insulting your interlocutor

Accessorily, you usually love to perform victory dances, and start jumping up and down, shouting "I won, I won". How childish.

In this case, you expressed yourself in an incomplete, imprecise fashion, and I therefore had to correct your statement.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Glad you already know this, at least Answering-Islam has taught you some truth.

I know a few things about Islam, and you are perfectly aware of that.

As you are perfectly aware that answering-Islam (which can be a very useful source) is, by far, not my only source.

Best regards

[naiadania]

(Original post by mariachi)
a martial relationship is a relationship characterized by aggression and violence. A pre-martial relationship would, I suppose, stop short of that. A very sensible move.

Most likely, what you mean is a "pre-marital relationship"
why should I give up trying to teach you some correct spelling ?

it's never too late to learn something new


.

All those posts were about my spelling...? Whoa, what's to say, other than that some people on the net have no life outside of it.

(Original post by mariachi)
"Muslim-hater" ? totally wrong. I don't hate anyone.

Most Muslims don't actually follow Islam, and for this reason are (usually), just normal people

There is absolutely no reason for hating them

Let see, so by your own unreliable and very strange assumption, most Muslims don't follow Islam (i.e., are Muslims by name, but are not Muslims) and this is what stops you from hating them. And so if they were Muslims, you'd hate them. Aren't you just reaffirming this point? Let's say it again: Muslim-hater.

You hate Muslims, hate the fact that we practice our religion, and this is why you badly, badly want us to abandon the teachings of Islam. All this shows is that the Qur'ans words, heard by the first man 1400 years ago, are yet coming into effect and proving themselves true again and again.

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). Qur'an Al Nisa' 89

[naiadania]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Parents ( husbands) are instructed in islamic teachings directly to discipline and if necessarry beat the women in their households if they dony obey or behave 'islamically' this would include a daughter having a non muslim boyfriend and so the trigger for honour beating and killing cases in this country.

Honour beating? Honour killing? Aren't those originally Western terms?

Try to find such a phrase in the Qur'an or Hadith?
Muslims were never taught to kill or beat anyone for honour.

[OneTimer]

(Original post by abc101)
My mum wouldn't care in the slightest. My dad would probably be disappointed. My brother would be the one I'd be worried about most!

I have very little intention of marrying a Muslim, so it's a situation that will most probably crop up!

why do you not want to marry a muslim?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by naiadania)
Honour beating? Honour killing? Aren't those originally Western terms?

Try to find such a phrase in the Qur'an or Hadith?
Muslims were never taught to kill or beat anyone for honour.

theyre terms used to mean the same thing - the hadith describes in various parts, males of the household beating insubordinent females