[Revilo1]

I was having a discussion with some friends about some of the people in our school, and what we thought they would end up doing in their future. However, one of them asked whether you could really blame some of the people we thought would spend their life on benefits/working in McDonalds for the decisions they made now - don't bother with school.

When you think about it, though, surely every 'choice' you make is a direct result of your surroundings and/or your genes? After all, at no point did anyone decide how they were going to think, and even if they did, they must have already been given a way of thinking to decide to think differently. If what I've just said is true - and a part of me hopes it isn't - then no-one can truly be blamed for what they've done.

So, I was wondering what you thought about this? Sorry if it isn't too clear, but I couldn't think of a better way of explaining it - I'm not sure I fully understand it myself

[WillowLeaves]

I'm not sure about working in McD, but I think you can "blame" people for being on benefits if that's their first choice of what they want to do (I put blame in quotation marks because I don 't think it's the right word really; it's more like "holding then accountable" than "blaming", surely?). But if someone tried other options first and couldn't find a job / became very ill etc, then I don't think you can "blame" them. Taking the easy way out by signing on as soon as you can is seen as a bad thing in our society, so surely the person doing it is aware of that alongside their own desire to do it. So you can "blame" them for knowingly doing something most people disapprove of, whereas the person who was more influenced by other circumstances is less to "blame" because it wasn't their conscious decision.


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[SpiggyTopes]

I've often thought about this. Physics says that nothing is due to chance and therefore all our thoughts and decisions are just complex reactions etc. which just follow a predetermined path. Everything that is going to happen could be predicted if only we were clever enough.

Am I mad?

[Stevo112]

I don't like the phrase "don't bother with school"

Let me tell you right away;

1. I didn't bother in school one bit

2. I got 11 GCSE's grade C or above

3. I got 3 alevels and an AS

4. Also a degree (effort went into that)


School was easy for me. I had mates who worked 100x harder than me and didn't even get 5 GCSE's C+. Some people just can't get it. It is unfair to say that such people make a choice about not wanting to bother with school... it is all down to the ability level of students

[Revilo1]

(Original post by WillowLeaves)
I'm not sure about working in McD, but I think you can "blame" people for being on benefits if that's their first choice of what they want to do (I put blame in quotation marks because I don 't think it's the right word really; it's more like "holding then accountable" than "blaming", surely?). But if someone tried other options first and couldn't find a job / became very ill etc, then I don't think you can "blame" them. Taking the easy way out by signing on as soon as you can is seen as a bad thing in our society, so surely the person doing it is aware of that alongside their own desire to do it. So you can "blame" them for knowingly doing something most people disapprove of, whereas the person who was more influenced by other circumstances is less to "blame" because it wasn't their conscious decision.


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I think i understand what you mean, but I'm not sure where you would draw the line between circumstances which affect them enough so that you cannot 'blame' them for what has happened, and ones which don't. I wasn't sure the word blame was the best word either, but I couldn't really think of a better one.

For instance, if both of your parents lived on benefits, and so did some of your older siblings, then surely you are much more likely to think that is an acceptable way to live? I know this doesn't apply to everyone who is in this situation, as it is the one my friend was in, and it simply makes him more determined to get a job and do more than the rest of his family.

[Revilo1]

(Original post by SpiggyTopes)
I've often thought about this. Physics says that nothing is due to chance and therefore all our thoughts and decisions are just complex reactions etc. which just follow a predetermined path. Everything that is going to happen could be predicted if only we were clever enough.

Am I mad?

This was kind of what my friend was on about - that there, essentially, is no such thing as free will. Which sounds pretty scary, as nothing you could do could change how your life was going to turn out.

[Revilo1]

(Original post by Stevo112)
I don't like the phrase "don't bother with school"

Let me tell you right away;

1. I didn't bother in school one bit

2. I got 11 GCSE's grade C or above

3. I got 3 alevels and an AS

4. Also a degree (effort went into that)


School was easy for me. I had mates who worked 100x harder than me and didn't even get 5 GCSE's C+. Some people just can't get it. It is unfair to say that such people make a choice about not wanting to bother with school... it is all down to the ability level of students

But the people who don't bother n school and do badly because of it could almost certainly have done at least a little better had they actually tried in school. For instance, imagine if your friends who tried harder than you and still did worse, hadn't tried at all. They would probably have done worse, and I would have thought that the main reason they tried so hard was to try and do their best and get the best grades they could.

I'm not saying you should blame people for not doing well in school - as no-one chooses how smart they are - but surely they should at least be aware that by trying they could do better.

[K the Failure]

(Original post by SpiggyTopes)
I've often thought about this. Physics says that nothing is due to chance and therefore all our thoughts and decisions are just complex reactions etc. which just follow a predetermined path. Everything that is going to happen could be predicted if only we were clever enough.

Am I mad?

I think quantum mechanics disagrees with you.

No you are not mad.

[SpiggyTopes]

(Original post by K the Failure)
I think quantum mechanics disagrees with you.

No you are not mad.

I wish I understood quantum

[WillowLeaves]

(Original post by Revilo1)
I think i understand what you mean, but I'm not sure where you would draw the line between circumstances which affect them enough so that you cannot 'blame' them for what has happened, and ones which don't. I wasn't sure the word blame was the best word either, but I couldn't really think of a better one.

For instance, if both of your parents lived on benefits, and so did some of your older siblings, then surely you are much more likely to think that is an acceptable way to live? I know this doesn't apply to everyone who is in this situation, as it is the one my friend was in, and it simply makes him more determined to get a job and do more than the rest of his family.

You're right that it's not as simple as what I first wrote but I'm not really sure where the distinction between choice and circumstance (for lack of better words) should be drawn. I think for me, the main thing is that pretty much everyone in our society knows that having a job is the right thing to do. So if someone willfully decides not to bother getting a job, they know they're doing something the society doesn't approve of. Now, if someone's family are on benefits, and that person actually tries but fails to get a job etc., then you can't really "blame" them because they tried to change their situation but weren't able to. If someone just figures benefits are good enough for them and never even bother trying to better themselves, then you can probably "blame" them for immediately taking the easy option that is generally frowned upon. Of course, the next question would be what constitutes "trying" and how you know someone actually really exhausted all their options etc...


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[Aoide]

I think quantum mechanics disagrees with you.

I'm not an expert at quantum mechanics (in fact I hate it) but i'm sure it only applies at very small scales at would have no real effect on thoughts.

To OP- Your pretty much correct, our brains follow predetermined paths depending on genes and environmental factors. Even if randomness does have an effect it is still out of our control. A depressing fact which neuroscience supports supports is that we don't really have free will.