[tupac1111]

Hi, I am a graduate from a polytechnic university and I have achieved a first degree in accounting and finance. I was amongst the top 2% of my undergraduate class (achieved 70%+ in 13 out of 16 modules for second and third year). I have 300 ucas points (AAD) from my 3 A levels and I also got an A grade at AS level. I have also met the GCSE entry requirements. I have also been accepted to study a master's course in economics at the University of Manchester starting in September 2012. I am wondering if my university's reputation (since my first degree is from a polytechnic uni) will hinder my chances of getting into the big 4. I would like some insight into this because I don't want to waste my time applying for the big 4 when I could use that time to apply for other firms. Thank you.

[Jack McGill]

I don't see any reason why you couldn't get in, although only PWC and maybe EY accept those with only 300 Ucas points.

[tupac1111]

On Deloitte's website, they ask for 300 ucas points for the 2012 intake for audit/tax. I don't know if this has changed though. I think only KPMG asks for 320 ucas points for audit/tax.

[monk_keys]

All the big firms look for well-rounded people so I don't think something as particular as the quality of your university would disadvantage you if it's an otherwise high quality application

[anonymousaudit]

Nope. The only prerequisites big 4 firms stipulate tend to be 300-320 UCAS points, B at GCSE Maths/English & some of them I've seen 4 weeks work experience in any field. Often these will be in tick box format at the start of the application, as long as you can tick all of these boxes you should definitely apply!

Funnily enough I was interviewed by a firm in the 10-20 section of AccountancyAge's list and they were the only firm that mentioned anything about my degree or university! I had a non-accountancy background and they were really quite rude/damning of my degree selection...whereas Big 4 and top 10 firms barely mentioned it?! Also know a two people from ex-polys (and another with a 2:2 from bath) doing well in investment banking. A degree, imo, just ticks a box for most firms!

[tupac1111]

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
Nope. The only prerequisites big 4 firms stipulate tend to be 300-320 UCAS points, B at GCSE Maths/English & some of them I've seen 4 weeks work experience in any field. Often these will be in tick box format at the start of the application, as long as you can tick all of these boxes you should definitely apply!

Funnily enough I was interviewed by a firm in the 10-20 section of AccountancyAge's list and they were the only firm that mentioned anything about my degree or university! I had a non-accountancy background and they were really quite rude/damning of my degree selection...whereas Big 4 and top 10 firms barely mentioned it?! Also know a two people from ex-polys (and another with a 2:2 from bath) doing well in investment banking. A degree, imo, just ticks a box for most firms!

I am guessing that you work in the audit department at one of the big 4. By the way, how are you finding the auditing career? I've read about several cases where candidates absolutely hate audit lol.

[anonymousaudit]

(Original post by tupac1111)
I am guessing that you work in the audit department at one of the big 4. By the way, how are you finding the auditing career? I've read about several cases where candidates absolutely hate audit lol.

Actually, I withdrew an application from one of the big 4! I now work for the next best thing if you catch my drift? I haven't yet started but I have had a lot of contact with both ends of the spectrum.

If you work in audit at the big 4...that's what you become, an auditor. for life. You will be one of many, many people calculating different elements of the same audit. Work is less varied, you tend to specialise in the same field/client and you 'reside' in that sector for much of your working life with the firm. Also there appears to be significantly less support for your ACA/ACCA qualifications. Also there is less opportunity for progression, and if there is it's at a snail's pace.

The experiences you can gain from a mid-tier firm (say top 20) provides a much rounder experience, which people typically enjoy more? You gain a broader knowledge of accounts and clients, you get more client contact, also you are able to contribute more to the job in terms of advisory and sensitivity analyses. The smaller firms tend to have a greater variety of businesses, yet you still benefit from the FTSE 100 types and corporate benefits. You are acknowledged as a person from the start, get direct contact with senior managers (maybe not partners until you personally become a manager). Also the clincher for me was that you can become an audit senior prior to completing your ACA...you're just way more acknowledged throughout every thing.

This is quite a contentious subject and obviously not everyone will agree with me. Some people absolutely love the prestige of a Big 4 firm and it's amazing to be able to state that you took your training at KPMG or Deloitte. The firms probably have nicer parties and offices, sweeter bonuses, etc. I'm not denying their many advantages. But personally, it's not for me.

If you had told me this early on in my application process I'd have laughed at how un-aspirational I appeared to be? Then I was taken on an expenses-paid meal at one of the big 4 and I enjoyed nothing about it. The way they spoke about their working life seemed dire, then their attitudes to other firms/people/the world/politics/everything it just seemed horrible. There was a definite "type" that the firm aim to recruit into and it just wasn't me at all. I'm not bitterly slating them as with interviews etc it's just as much about how well YOU will do at the firm as it is how well the firm perceive you?

Sorry if none of this made sense! x

[ilovecatsforlife]

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
Actually, I withdrew an application from one of the big 4! I now work for the next best thing if you catch my drift? I haven't yet started but I have had a lot of contact with both ends of the spectrum.

If you work in audit at the big 4...that's what you become, an auditor. for life. You will be one of many, many people calculating different elements of the same audit. Work is less varied, you tend to specialise in the same field/client and you 'reside' in that sector for much of your working life with the firm. Also there appears to be significantly less support for your ACA/ACCA qualifications. Also there is less opportunity for progression, and if there is it's at a snail's pace.

The experiences you can gain from a mid-tier firm (say top 20) provides a much rounder experience, which people typically enjoy more? You gain a broader knowledge of accounts and clients, you get more client contact, also you are able to contribute more to the job in terms of advisory and sensitivity analyses. The smaller firms tend to have a greater variety of businesses, yet you still benefit from the FTSE 100 types and corporate benefits. You are acknowledged as a person from the start, get direct contact with senior managers (maybe not partners until you personally become a manager). Also the clincher for me was that you can become an audit senior prior to completing your ACA...you're just way more acknowledged throughout every thing.

This is quite a contentious subject and obviously not everyone will agree with me. Some people absolutely love the prestige of a Big 4 firm and it's amazing to be able to state that you took your training at KPMG or Deloitte. The firms probably have nicer parties and offices, sweeter bonuses, etc. I'm not denying their many advantages. But personally, it's not for me.

If you had told me this early on in my application process I'd have laughed at how un-aspirational I appeared to be? Then I was taken on an expenses-paid meal at one of the big 4 and I enjoyed nothing about it. The way they spoke about their working life seemed dire, then their attitudes to other firms/people/the world/politics/everything it just seemed horrible. There was a definite "type" that the firm aim to recruit into and it just wasn't me at all. I'm not bitterly slating them as with interviews etc it's just as much about how well YOU will do at the firm as it is how well the firm perceive you?

Sorry if none of this made sense! x

Wow, so you're in IB? You make accounting at the big4 sound horrible! But I have read it can get boring sometimes. But with the ACA, you can move into industry ie a finance department of a big firm, surely that gets more interesting? I've been told that getting the ACA is tough on many fronts, namely that you need to devote yourself to studying but once qualified, it gets more interesting? Unless of course you're talking about people who want to work in practise at the big4 for their entire working life, picking up upwards of £160,000 each year in audit? I could see that getting boring

[tupac1111]

Yes I think that most people leave the big 4 after gaining the aca/acca qualification and move into other industries. I've read that some auditors at the big 4 moved into equity research and back office jobs.

[monk_keys]

I think he meant GT

[Big_Dave]

(Original post by anonymousaudit)

If you work in audit at the big 4...that's what you become, an auditor. for life.

Bit extreme.... considering the vast majority of people who qualify in audit, leave on qualification and go into other non-audit roles. True, some people stay in audit, but that is their choice, rather than it is all they can do!

[Eien]

In terms of chances of getting in, I'd say it's all about preparation and focusing on what you need to succeed at each stage. I did not have an economics/accountancy degree, but I did my research on the salient issues as well as KPMG itself (for which I now have an offer for the Japanese Tax Service, incidentally my degree was Japanese and Korean!). I actually got rejected back in 2010 since I applied really on the off-chance and didn't prepare hugely, but after working two years in another financial markets related job gave me the perspective and interest to return and get the offer the second time around (I even got interviewed by the person who previously rejected me!).

Along with preparing (Wikijobs is great for letting you know what kind of questions will be asked, what the assessment centre tasks are, etc) knowing the competencies well is important, as well as showing career aspiration. If you can demonstrate this, and at least have the minimum academic requirements, you have a decent chance. Audit tends to have more applicants than tax, although perhaps more vacancies as well.

The big 4 firms are great 'training grounds' for many graduates, but the vast majority will move into industry once qualified, as the hours can be easier and the pay higher - the Big 4 aren't going to pay more than they need to, considering the volume of graduates they hire. Having that Big 4 name makes it all the easier to land that industry job. It would only be worth staying in the long run if you badly wanted to become a partner, which is a long, hard road, although you will eventually be paid silly money if you made it that high. It apparently does require a certain amount of billable hours (and I Imagine it's a LOT) before you can even think of applying to be a partner!

[tupac1111]

Just a question regarding the application process, is there anyone out there who met the entry requirements but wasn't invited to complete the numerical/verbal reasoning tests?

[anonymousaudit]

(Original post by Big_Dave)
Bit extreme.... considering the vast majority of people who qualify in audit, leave on qualification and go into other non-audit roles. True, some people stay in audit, but that is their choice, rather than it is all they can do!

Ohhh I think you misunderstood me, sorry!

I meant as in if you were to stay in audit at the firm you were offered a placement at...that's all you'd ever be doing. Minute details on the same old audits. Whereas at mid-tier firms there seems to be more opportunties for secondment. Even if you don't want to dedicate time explicitly to second, you can always experience work in different sectors or on different clients? It just seems more rounded.

However I agree, most of the audit trainees from the Big 4 do move on to do different things like internal finance in FTSE 100 firms.

[anonymousaudit]

(Original post by ilovecatsforlife)
Wow, so you're in IB? You make accounting at the big4 sound horrible! But I have read it can get boring sometimes. But with the ACA, you can move into industry ie a finance department of a big firm, surely that gets more interesting? I've been told that getting the ACA is tough on many fronts, namely that you need to devote yourself to studying but once qualified, it gets more interesting? Unless of course you're talking about people who want to work in practise at the big4 for their entire working life, picking up upwards of £160,000 each year in audit? I could see that getting boring

No haha sorry, I work for a firm just outside of the Big 4 is what I meant!

And I'm sorry- I'm sure it's a lovely working environment, thousands of people apply and fight for places for the opportunity to work there so it definitely is worth it. I just said that the atmosphere was not for me, it wasn't what I wanted for a job personally. You're not me and neither is any one else on TSR so take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt please! I just personally didn't like it and would encourage any one pursuing a career in the Big 4 to make the most of the careers days, mentorship schemes, any communication with employees, etc that they can so they can fully understand what they're getting themselves in for. I was blinded by the prestige of these firms to be honest. Don't be sat at an expenses paid dinner wanting to curl up and sleep away the next 4 hours, doubting your very being is what I'm trying to say!

The ACA is tough. Many compare it to another degree alongside work. It's mainly about striking the right work/life/study balance, however. If you meet the prerequisites you're more than capable of doing the examinations! The advantage of a mid-tier firm is that you get more one-on-one mentorship/support and smaller groups in which you work in your firm. You also get a variety of experience to confound the textbook knowledge; whereas big 4 audit you may not, so they're still abstract concepts to you in a sense? Obviously big 4 candidates still thrive at the ACA. But you have to research it and think about what type of learning style works best for you!

Not everyone that goes in as a graduate audit associate stays there. The firm is built on the premise that it is 'bottom heavy' and that there will always be a high turnover of junior auditors! They're fine with that reality, in turn for paying for your ACA qual you receive a slightly lower income than a chartered acc! It's mutually beneficial. I'm not sure on statistics but I was told at interview by several firms that the majority of candidates either leave or second into different departments. Most of them leave for internal finance at large companies; banking; etc. Some leave to do something entirely different! Obviously you can always climb up the firm you started out in, too! I'm not sure where you got £160,000 from and what position that holds relevance to? But you can find rough salary progression estimates for big 4 firms and beyond on the internet if you search hard enough!

[anonymousaudit]

(Original post by tupac1111)
Just a question regarding the application process, is there anyone out there who met the entry requirements but wasn't invited to complete the numerical/verbal reasoning tests?

Firstly sorry everyone for spamming this thread aaah!!

And yes you can be rejected at the initial stage, without being invited to complete online assessments. Have you looked at any of the online apps? Often there are background information and general questions (cliched why this girm, why audit, what differentiates us from our competitors, why this location, work experience, competency based questions, extra curricular questions, additional skill questions, Baker Tilly ask how you'd invest £100k, etc etc etc). If you don't answer those proficiently then it's possible that you will be outright rejected without further testing.

To prevent that from happening I'd recommend spending time on every application! Each of mine took around 2-3 hours to complete, which seems ridiculous but I only applied for 5 firms and got 2 offers. Whereas I know people who C+P applications like mad and have applied for 70+ places! That's my suspicion anyway...so do NOT copy & paste !! Tailor each response very much to the firm, their ethos, their clients, their position in the market, seriously do your research! A lot of stuff is to be found on their own website or AA, don't be afraid to mention things you've read online about them either! It shows market awareness and that you genuinely want to work for ___ rather than "my mum said I should get a job as an accountant so here I am guys!!". Take your time, you can often save them online so don't be afraid to save the app before sending, come back a few days later and re-read to check it over!

[M1011]

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
If you work in audit at the big 4...that's what you become, an auditor. for life.

Totally incorrect.

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
Also there appears to be significantly less support for your ACA/ACCA qualifications. Also there is less opportunity for progression, and if there is it's at a snail's pace.

I've been reliably informed this is one of the best things about the big 4? They support you throughout the qualification.

As for opportunity for progression, yearly promotions and pay rises? What more do you want? Not saying the likes of GT don't offer that as well, but I doubt they offer more. Also when we talk about progression opportunities, lets not forget they include your opportunities to move out of the firm as well, and in this regard a big 4 brand is definitely valuable.

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
Then I was taken on an expenses-paid meal at one of the big 4 and I enjoyed nothing about it. The way they spoke about their working life seemed dire, then their attitudes to other firms/people/the world/politics/everything it just seemed horrible. There was a definite "type" that the firm aim to recruit into and it just wasn't me at all.

Please don't judge firms employing hundreds of thousands of people based on a small group that attended your meal. Slightly unfair.

While I don't agree with your reasoning, I do agree that each person needs to weigh up the pro's and con's of each firm in order to decide where they want to go. However your post is rather misleading in truth.

(Original post by tupac1111)
Hi, I am a graduate from a polytechnic university and I have achieved a first degree in accounting and finance. I was amongst the top 2% of my undergraduate class (achieved 70%+ in 13 out of 16 modules for second and third year). I have 300 ucas points (AAD) from my 3 A levels and I also got an A grade at AS level. I have also met the GCSE entry requirements. I have also been accepted to study a master's course in economics at the University of Manchester starting in September 2012. I am wondering if my university's reputation (since my first degree is from a polytechnic uni) will hinder my chances of getting into the big 4. I would like some insight into this because I don't want to waste my time applying for the big 4 when I could use that time to apply for other firms. Thank you.

Contrary to some of the comments, the big 4 don't take many students from weaker universities. I'm at a top 30 and we got a grand total of 4 in to deloitte, whereas the likes of oxford and cambridge have pages worth of grads in the facebook group. So by all means apply, but you'll have to make yourself stand out to make up for a weaker then average university. You're strong achievement at university is one way in which you can do that, but work experience / ec's / strong interview performance / strong test performance will all need to weigh in to make you the complete package. So I would say manage your expectations, but don't feel that you can't get a big 4 position if you want one just because of your university.

[anonymousaudit]

(Original post by M1011)
Totally incorrect.

Hello, I have absolutely no idea how to quote you bit-by-bit like you did me so bare with me please- sorry if this looks a bit scruffy!

"I've been reliably informed this is one of the best things about the big 4? They support you throughout the qualification."

I was invited, as part of the recruitment process, to have dinner with current audit associates. All of them (about 10) mentioned that they were envious of their peers in lower-ranked firms as they received much more support from their seniors. It may be exclusive to this one firm, but that's the general stance I've taken. I may be biased as my firm has the highest pass rate for ACA in the country and a ridiculously supportive network for graduate employees, so maybe I'm not in the best position to judge?

"As for opportunity for progression, yearly promotions and pay rises? What more do you want?"

That's pretty standard across audit as a whole, isn't it? It was more in regards to gaining additional responsibilities, becoming an audit senior is harder in a big 4 firm because there's a stiffer competition...and there's more people to compete against. I've read a few articles on AA about the gender imbalance (sorry, not really applicable to you!) in upper management in big 4 firms: again, my firm is one of the few outlined as progressive in regards to this. And yeah I do apologise for completely ignoring external opportunities, although I did say earlier in this thread that having the big 4 as your training grounds on your CV is amazing and opens a lot of doors! I did judge the entire firm based upon the 10 auditors (who came from offices across the country) recounting similar anecdotes all night, none of which appealed to me in the slightest

Although re: top unis...harsh but I suppose true. I went to York and at my recruitment day we had 6/9 people from York uni! Staggering and apparently a coincidence?! Only 2 of us had graduated in that year, the others had graduated up to 3 years beforehand. There were 2 Cambridge grads (neither of them got the job which surprised me) and also a guy from Kingston uni. It's not particularly varied but I assume Kingston is an ex-poly, if not it is seen as a lower league uni, so it shows there is some potential to get through to interview!

Also feel free not to answer this section as it's completely nosy, I've seen you on this forum a lot M1101- can I ask if you're already in audit? An interested graduate? I think you've assumed I work for Grant Thornton when I don't btw! Or does GT mean something to do with this forum that I'm completely unaware of?

[M1011]

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
Hello, I have absolutely no idea how to quote you bit-by-bit like you did me so bare with me please- sorry if this looks a bit scruffy!

Multi-quoting takes mad forum skills

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
I was invited, as part of the recruitment process, to have dinner with current audit associates. All of them (about 10) mentioned that they were envious of their peers in lower-ranked firms as they received much more support from their seniors. It may be exclusive to this one firm, but that's the general stance I've taken. I may be biased as my firm has the highest pass rate for ACA in the country and a ridiculously supportive network for graduate employees, so maybe I'm not in the best position to judge?

My impression from speaking to current graduates is that pass rates are very high across the big 4. I certainly didn't get the same impression as you, but then that isn't to say it's not true. I do find it surprising that at a dinner designed to essentially encourage you to join the firm, they associates were in fact speaking negatively all evening? Are you sure they weren't saboteurs? I can't comment on how high pass rates are within big 4 as I simply don't know, but I don't think it's an issue as not many fail. But I guess this will all become clearer in time. Either way, it's Kaplan that train us right, not the firm itself.

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
That's pretty standard across audit as a whole, isn't it? It was more in regards to gaining additional responsibilities, becoming an audit senior is harder in a big 4 firm because there's a stiffer competition...and there's more people to compete against. I've read a few articles on AA about the gender imbalance (sorry, not really applicable to you!) in upper management in big 4 firms: again, my firm is one of the few outlined as progressive in regards to this. And yeah I do apologise for completely ignoring external opportunities, although I did say earlier in this thread that having the big 4 as your training grounds on your CV is amazing and opens a lot of doors! I did judge the entire firm based upon the 10 auditors (who came from offices across the country) recounting similar anecdotes all night, none of which appealed to me in the slightest

Perhaps you can argue stiffer competition, but I could flip it around and say more senior positions available. But then everyone would get dizzy and we would achieve nothing, so lets move on

As for the gender imbalance, can't say I know anything about it, but if you're right then this seems like an advantage to me (as a man) given the intake is roughly 50/50. Lol

(Original post by anonymousaudit)
Also feel free not to answer this section as it's completely nosy, I've seen you on this forum a lot M1101- can I ask if you're already in audit? An interested graduate? I think you've assumed I work for Grant Thornton when I don't btw! Or does GT mean something to do with this forum that I'm completely unaware of?

Apologies, someone said GT earlier in the thread and I assumed it was you for some reason. I've just graduated, starting my scheme in September

[anonymousaudit]

(Original post by M1011)
Multi-quoting takes mad forum skills

haaaa i'm TRYING in this post. watch me fail at it?

My impression from speaking to current graduates is that pass rates are very high across the big 4. I certainly didn't get the same impression as you, but then that isn't to say it's not true. I do find it surprising that at a dinner designed to essentially encourage you to join the firm, they associates were in fact speaking negatively all evening? Are you sure they weren't saboteurs? I can't comment on how high pass rates are within big 4 as I simply don't know, but I don't think it's an issue as not many fail. But I guess this will all become clearer in time. Either way, it's Kaplan that train us right, not the firm itself.

High pass rates aren't indicative of good support networks! Those in the top 4 have records of high achievement, they would do well independently learning or with heavy mentorship. The firms know this, so they cut back on senior manager mentoring to cut costs! They're very much left alone to go through the motions, and that's the impression I have received from speaking to a number of friends on ACA in big 4 firms and random careers fairs, AND dinners/mentor schemes for applications! Like I said earlier, it's up to you to know what you're after and apply appropriately!

As for the gender imbalance, can't say I know anything about it, but if you're right then this seems like an advantage to me (as a man) given the intake is roughly 50/50. Lol

Unfortunately it is an advantage for you, it's a finance/industry wide problem that females very rarely manage to excel beyond entry level/middle management?! Whereas in mid-tier firms there seems to be a lot more going on for female management which is obviously an attraction for a female grad...

Apologies, someone said GT earlier in the thread and I assumed it was you for some reason. I've just graduated, starting my scheme in September

Nooo haha although they weren't far off! Are you excited to start? I start September also. Can I be cheeky and ask if they've requested your uni certificates yet? I haven't had a written request for them and I was a little worried, but it's still quite soon after graduation I suppose. Hm.

Currently working my old rubbish job and v bored of it! What are you doing to pass the time? And shopping/worrying endlessly about what to wear to work I forgot my formal shoes for my interview so had to wear ~trendy~ normal me ones, no one said anything so I'm guessing I can't go too wrong!