[littleone271]

(Original post by Rancorous)
It's 60k+ you owe to other people, and the longer it takes you to pay it back the more you have to pay in interest. I was aware of government promotions to rebrand debt as tax, but I am surprised how gullible students are.

I'm not gullible. You get to keep 21k and anything surplus to that you pay back 9% of it a year. That's hardly unreasonable. After 30 years it gets wiped anyway, it's not like they're going to send debt collectors to your door. Hence why in my mind it isn't really proper debt. I personally think of debt as being something that you have to pay back via direct debit or similar, irrelevant of your earnings. Student loan repayments are nothing like that and there's no pressure to make payments that you can't afford. The larger repayments and the interest making it last longer would only affect you if you had a really well paying job which for most people with a degree would probably be as a result of having that degree.

I guess some people might view it as immoral to take out a loan when you're not sure if you'll ever pay it back and I could see it creating a serious problem in 10 years time when they realise how many people are failing to pay it back (presumably the money has to come from somewhere) but to be fair it's kind of the governments fault for whacking the tuition fees up in the first place. I don't think anyone should deny themselves the opportunity to have the university experience just because the crappy government are making stupid decisions. Life is too short for that.

Kinda going off on a tangent here but yeah the only problem I have with the SLC is that they're giving tuition fee loans to the very mature students who don't have any intention of getting a job afterwards. I think the cut off age for starting a degree should be 35. That's 65 (a reasonable age for retirement) minus the 30 years that other people have to pay it off before it gets wiped. I know they've probably been paying tax for years but I don't think thats an excuse because that pays for other things like healthcare and benefits for disabled people etc.

If you've been paying tax on an average income for 35 years (from age 20-55 for example) but you have to have a ton of NHS operations due to no fault of your own then in monetary terms you may not have actually given anything to society. You might even technically be 'in the red'. My point being that the argument 'I've paid tax for x amount of years therefore I've already paid for my degree' is invalid because it's impossible to know where to draw the line without saying yes to people with a clean medical record and saying no to recovered cancer patients for instance. The number of years you've paid tax for has nothing to do with anything. So I think if you're over 35 and you want to study something purely for academic interest with no intention whatsoever of it leading to a job then you obviously aren't planning on paying a penny back so you should fund the degree yourself. To me that makes sense but some people seem to disagree and I don't really understand why to be honest.

[M1011]

(Original post by Rancorous)
As I said, it's been explained to you but you either can't be bothered to read it or you don't have the reading comprehension to digest it. A hairdresser and a project manager at a bank are two very different jobs which non graduates can get and pay very different wages. Likewise, IB pays substantially more than a media planner who will start on 18k - both of which are jobs taken by graduates.

What on earth is your point? How is this relevant? Is this an internal argument you're having with yourself? Do you know what the word average means? If I say the average graduate earns more then the average non-graduate over the course of their life that does not mean every graduate earns more, it does not mean that graduates in media earn more then non graduates in banking, it does not mean any of these convoluted twisted words you're attempting to put in my mouth. What it means is that on the whole graduates have better opportunities to earn money on average then non-graduates.

Now you're probably thinking "but how can you say all degrees are the same", well OK you have a point, some degrees give better opportunities then others. But if you are a graduate then you probably know that most companies just look for a 2.1 degree as an indicator that you're worth interviewing, many don't ask for specific degree subjects so actually a French degree from UEA isn't going to limit an individual to a career in that area at all.

The funny thing is you've convinced yourself that I don't understand what you're saying, but that isn't the case. I understand exactly what you're saying, but I disagree with it. There is a distinct difference between not understand and having a different opinion, and I'm starting to wonder if you have the cognitive ability to pick up the subtleties of my master plan. Lets put it this way, you're Pinky and I'm the Brain. Kapeesh?

(Original post by Rancorous)
You're sticking your fingers in your ears. I'm not sure if you're incapable of understanding 'graduate' does not mean highly salaried. There is a distinction between different graduate jobs.

No, but it equals more money on average over a career, see above.

(Original post by Rancorous)
I was reminding you of the interest rate, which I didn't have to pay. For me, it was adjusted for inflation. New graduates will have to pay thousands more than they borrow.

Many will never pay off their debt. That's why many see it as a tax, because it is viewed as a percentage that will always be paid off the top of your salary as opposed to something you're aiming to pay off.

For high achievers it may well prove to be a kick in the gonads. But would those people necessarily have those high salaries without the degree? Food for thought.

(Original post by Rancorous)
That's the government line. The average salary and the vast majority of people in the UK earn over 21k; and those statistics include those in their 20s. A graduate is going to find it hard to go through life - through their 30s and 40s and not earn over 21k. The con is the longer you take to pay the loans back, the more you'll have to pay because of the interest rate.

Riddle me this, oh knowledgeable Rancorous. What is the average salary in the UK? I bet I earn more in my first year then the average. I bet I earn double the average within 5 years. So why should I worry about paying a few percent of my earnings over 15k if a degree (on top of many other things of course) can offer me that earning potential?

Of course this won't apply to all, but then if you don't intend to make something out of your career then you shouldn't bother with a degree IMO.

(Original post by Rancorous)
What an idiotic thing to say. These jobs go to a tiny minority of top graduates. For that reason, you won't be one of them of course.

Oh lordy. Did he just say what I think he just said? Yes. Yes you did. Do you not see how this contradicts your first paragraph entirely?

I'm comparing like for like. Sure only a tiny majority of grads go into this field, but its a higher % of grads going into IB then % of non grads going into IB, without a shadow of a doubt. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me there. So then when you are justifying dismissing a degree by pointing at your 'friends who earn 50k in the bankings' (I paraphrased for you), I think it is very relevant to point out that if those same friends had done a degree and worked their way into IB from there at the age of 21, they would probably be earning closer to double that figure now by their mid-20s. So I really don't see how this indicates a degree should be dismissed.

Oh and that last bit, please don't be nonsensical. I have no knowledge of IB, so you're quite right I wouldn't get in. I haven't done internships in IB, I haven't gone to an IB target and I haven't networked in IB, none of this has anything to do with being a 'top grad'. However I am soon to join a top grad scheme in the area of my interest, so I'm very comfortable with my performance tyvm.

(Original post by Rancorous)
No, it's not. There are management opportunities and growth opportunities in place. There are a lot of dead end retail jobs, but there are also opportunities at other companies which value retail experience which will offer management opportunities.

Oh yes. I quite agree. I never said a degree was the only route. In fact I've gone to lengths to make it clear I don't know what the best route is for the OP as I know nothing about them. I'm simply defending degrees in general from your insensitive words.

(Original post by Rancorous)
That's not true if you do a hard course at a good university, and you want to do well. You have to work 40 hours a week minimum.

No, I don't think I do. Maybe you do, I don't know, but I don't. Outside of the likes of Oxbridge I imagine most students do nothing like 40 hour weeks apart from exam periods.

(Original post by Rancorous)
Yes, placement years in industry are valuable if it's relevant. But that's not open to the vast majority of graduates at the vast majority of universities.

Then pick a uni that offers it. Doesn't have to be relevant btw, strong professional experience is gold dust on a grad CV (apart from specifics like Law I guess). Also summer internship are not to be sniffed at.

[Kaylaleigh]

thanks for al the responses!
Thing is I was 100% sure about uni before I got this job at Tesco. Since starting I've found I enjoy the work for what it is, I don't want too much responsability from a job, but maybe that's just because I'm young. The people I work with too make the job 100x more enjoyable too. I mean from what I can make out of it, I would love the lifestyle at uni and the social side would be great. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't just be going for that. I really want to become fluent in French, however I know there are other routes I can take to accomplish this other than uni. I just don't want to feel like I miss out. I think if I were to become fluent I'd just do some translation or something on the side of my main job, so I can say I use my skills.

Overall I really want to go to uni, I think I just need a year out. I've been in education for 14 years now, I need a break. Loads of people have a year out first anyway so it's not like I'd go into halls being the odd one out.

Would UEA look poorly on my application next year though if I decided to pull out? And how might they feel about deferring me after results day? because I need all the thinking time I can get and I don't want to pull out or defer then come august change my mind when it is too late.

[Clayman]

(Original post by QuirkyDoDo)
That's very sad and uninspiring for someone like myself who is going to do a degree in which french is part of.

I hate to say it - I don't mean to upset people who are/will be doing French. Just sharing the person experiences of people I know in hope of helping somebody out.

[QuirkyDoDo]

(Original post by Clayman)
I hate to say it - I don't mean to upset people who are/will be doing French. Just sharing the person experiences of people I know in hope of helping somebody out.

The truth hurts and all that. Did they do just French or did they do a degree like [insert subject] with/and French?

[Clayman]

(Original post by QuirkyDoDo)
The truth hurts and all that. Did they do just French or did they do a degree like [insert subject] with/and French?

Just French (along with a few other language modules). I expect mixed degrees give much better prospects and produce well-rounded graduates. Providing the other half of the degree is useful of course.

[QuirkyDoDo]

(Original post by Clayman)
Just French (along with a few other language modules). I expect mixed degrees give much better prospects and produce well-rounded graduates. Providing the other half of the degree is useful of course.

Sigh of relief. I can't say I haven't heard that just doing languages quite simply isn't enough, unless you want to be a teacher.

[SilverDoe21]

(Original post by Kaylaleigh)
Right, well I've applied to UEA to do Modern Languages (French). Languages are the one subject which just makes sense to me - I get them. I also enjoy them, I always loved French at school and especially at A-level.

Now I'm not so sure I want to go. I have no idea what I want to do with my degree - I don't want to be a teacher, translator or any other stereo typical job Language graduates do.

At the moment I work at Tesco and to be honest I enjoy it very much, I work on the twilight team so the store is closed half the time we're there so there is good banter and friendships going on. And to be honest, I'm quite happy there, the pay is decent for what the job is (especialy working late shifts) and I'm due a pay rise in 4 months. And moreover, even with just decent A-levels there is room for promotion and training etc, which would lead to more pay eventually. I also have another job in a cafe with decent money too, so money wise I would do ok if I was pushed out into the big bad world now.

I think the thing is though, come september all I would see on facebook and hear about isall of my friends' experiences at university, what a great time they're having, all the things they're getting up to etc, and then there'll be me just here thinking that should be me. Even if I just took a year out, I would feel the same.

I don't know what to do. I kind of want to wait and hold on til results day before I make a brash decision, I have no insurance, so it's UEA or bust for me. Maybe I just need a year out, I just feel done with education. If I did hold on, got the grades to get in etc, am I likely to get a deferred place if I asked? Or am I just better off asking UEA to release me now and re-applying next year if I change my mind and want to go?

I keep having those moments where I wonder whether I'm making the right decision in going to uni, and tbh I think it's mainly fear of the unknown. I think when it comes down to it it's a great opportunity and you don't want to look back in 10 years regretting not going.

You seem really passionate about French - I completely get the languages thing, I love it too. It would be such a waste to give up a subject you love, especially a language; think of all the time you invested in learning it!

I read today in Marie Claire about 'FOMO' (Fear of Missing Out). Don't let other people's choices influence your own - what's right for them might not be right for you. Only you know what you want to do. I don't want to sway you either way, but I know I want to make the most of everything

[Kaylaleigh]

(Original post by SilverDoe21)
I keep having those moments where I wonder whether I'm making the right decision in going to uni, and tbh I think it's mainly fear of the unknown. I think when it comes down to it it's a great opportunity and you don't want to look back in 10 years regretting not going.

You seem really passionate about French - I completely get the languages thing, I love it too. It would be such a waste to give up a subject you love, especially a language; think of all the time you invested in learning it!

I read today in Marie Claire about 'FOMO' (Fear of Missing Out). Don't let other people's choices influence your own - what's right for them might not be right for you. Only you know what you want to do. I don't want to sway you either way, but I know I want to make the most of everything

I think I definitly want to go, I mean a couple of weeks ago I got all excited and started making a list of everything I need to take with me! I think now I just need to decide if to defer or not. I mean if I do, I'm not exactly going to be doing much, just working and stuff like I am now. On the other hand, I don't want to leave behind my new job and all the new people I've met. I just don't want to ask them to defer me then change my mind, but at the same time I need to make my mind up quickly! Nor do I want it to get to november time and I regret my decision. That said I don't suppose you (or anyone ese!?) know how accomodating for a deferal place uni's are after results day? or if they wouldn't defer me and I simply pulled out and reaaplied if they would look down on my application next year?

I don't know as well if it's because I haven't seen anyone from school since we broke up - they're always meeting up but I'm either not invited or working so I always miss out and so I don't like the idea of them all going to uni and having a good time without me, if that makes sense :/

I guess at the end of the day, worst thing thatg can happen is I regret derfering but wil end up at uni anyway so it doesn't matter and in the meantime I'l be earning

[frank070691]

I've just done a languages degree and no, I don't have a job jet (although admittedly I'm not going to start looking properly until September). But, I certainly don't think a languages graduate is any less employable than a history or English graduate (for example) as they are all essay based subjects, plus with languages you get that actual real-world skill and the experience of the year abroad.

Even if I never get a graduate job, I can genuinely say I've had the best 4 years of my life and I will never regret doing my degree.

[poony]

(Original post by Kaylaleigh)
thanks for al the responses!
Thing is I was 100% sure about uni before I got this job at Tesco. Since starting I've found I enjoy the work for what it is, I don't want too much responsability from a job, but maybe that's just because I'm young. The people I work with too make the job 100x more enjoyable too. I mean from what I can make out of it, I would love the lifestyle at uni and the social side would be great. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't just be going for that. I really want to become fluent in French, however I know there are other routes I can take to accomplish this other than uni. I just don't want to feel like I miss out. I think if I were to become fluent I'd just do some translation or something on the side of my main job, so I can say I use my skills.

Overall I really want to go to uni, I think I just need a year out. I've been in education for 14 years now, I need a break. Loads of people have a year out first anyway so it's not like I'd go into halls being the odd one out.

Would UEA look poorly on my application next year though if I decided to pull out? And how might they feel about deferring me after results day? because I need all the thinking time I can get and I don't want to pull out or defer then come august change my mind when it is too late.

Why don't you phone the uni. admission office, they will give you a general idea. No one in this forum can give you a definite answer.

14 years of education and you need a break, I studied unitl I was 28, school, uni, ACA exam. & finally MBA, I know once I stopped, I won't have the momentum. Taking a gap year will not be a bad thing. If you decided not to go to uni. think of where will you be in 10 yrs time.

I see some people saying experience of their friends, I can tell you my OWN experience, uni. life is great, you will talk to fellow students with the same intellectual level and mindset. UEA is a decent uni.

[SilverDoe21]

(Original post by Kaylaleigh)
I think I definitly want to go, I mean a couple of weeks ago I got all excited and started making a list of everything I need to take with me! I think now I just need to decide if to defer or not. I mean if I do, I'm not exactly going to be doing much, just working and stuff like I am now. On the other hand, I don't want to leave behind my new job and all the new people I've met. I just don't want to ask them to defer me then change my mind, but at the same time I need to make my mind up quickly! Nor do I want it to get to november time and I regret my decision. That said I don't suppose you (or anyone ese!?) know how accomodating for a deferal place uni's are after results day? or if they wouldn't defer me and I simply pulled out and reaaplied if they would look down on my application next year?

I don't know as well if it's because I haven't seen anyone from school since we broke up - they're always meeting up but I'm either not invited or working so I always miss out and so I don't like the idea of them all going to uni and having a good time without me, if that makes sense :/

I guess at the end of the day, worst

It sounds like you'd regret it if you didn't go. Sure you like your job, but I'd think it's better to leave while you're still enjoying it, so you have good memories.

I imagine it depends on the university as to whether they'd let you defer or not, but perhaps some time away would strengthen the friendships you currently have? You'd have so much more to tell. You'll have a great time if you go, you might start to resent your job if you stay.

If I were you I'd try to get yourself as excited as possible. When I have doubts I look at pictures of Edinburgh and keep adding to my list of things to buy, and then I can't help but get excited

[Rancorous]

(Original post by littleone271)
I'm not gullible. You get to keep 21k and anything surplus to that you pay back 9% of it a year. That's hardly unreasonable. After 30 years it gets wiped anyway, it's not like they're going to send debt collectors to your door. Hence why in my mind it isn't really proper debt. I personally think of debt as being something that you have to pay back via direct debit or similar, irrelevant of your earnings. Student loan repayments are nothing like that and there's no pressure to make payments that you can't afford. The larger repayments and the interest making it last longer would only affect you if you had a really well paying job which for most people with a degree would probably be as a result of having that degree.

I guess some people might view it as immoral to take out a loan when you're not sure if you'll ever pay it back and I could see it creating a serious problem in 10 years time when they realise how many people are failing to pay it back (presumably the money has to come from somewhere) but to be fair it's kind of the governments fault for whacking the tuition fees up in the first place. I don't think anyone should deny themselves the opportunity to have the university experience just because the crappy government are making stupid decisions. Life is too short for that.

Kinda going off on a tangent here but yeah the only problem I have with the SLC is that they're giving tuition fee loans to the very mature students who don't have any intention of getting a job afterwards. I think the cut off age for starting a degree should be 35. That's 65 (a reasonable age for retirement) minus the 30 years that other people have to pay it off before it gets wiped. I know they've probably been paying tax for years but I don't think thats an excuse because that pays for other things like healthcare and benefits for disabled people etc.

If you've been paying tax on an average income for 35 years (from age 20-55 for example) but you have to have a ton of NHS operations due to no fault of your own then in monetary terms you may not have actually given anything to society. You might even technically be 'in the red'. My point being that the argument 'I've paid tax for x amount of years therefore I've already paid for my degree' is invalid because it's impossible to know where to draw the line without saying yes to people with a clean medical record and saying no to recovered cancer patients for instance. The number of years you've paid tax for has nothing to do with anything. So I think if you're over 35 and you want to study something purely for academic interest with no intention whatsoever of it leading to a job then you obviously aren't planning on paying a penny back so you should fund the degree yourself. To me that makes sense but some people seem to disagree and I don't really understand why to be honest.

You've fallen for what the sleezy carsalesmen who sold the policy said. 'Buy now, satisfaction guaranteed!' They don't want you to focus on the total debt, but the individual repayments. Actually it's very likely debt will be written off, because of the interest you can pay over 100k for these loans and still owe more. Tthe vast majority of graduates will pay over what they borrowed. Yes, at first you pay 400 to 1k or so a year, but when you earn more when you're in your 30s, 40s and 50s you'll be shelling out 5-10k a year, every year. What most students don't realise is the salaries at that level are higher but income tax destroys salaries, I.e 100k after tax is closer to 60k, plus adults earning higher salaries have greater fixed costs, I.e children, mortgage....and most adults pay into a pension to survive in their old age. What the policy does is to take much more money from graduates over the course of their lifetimes, like these dodgy policies which say no payment up front. So yes, you are gullible.

[BigSamBear]

Personally speaking, uni wasn't what i thought it would be; college was harder than what we're doing now, there was more work and near enough everyone i speak to had a lot more motivation to do the work.

I absolutely loved college, but i've found i've lost my motivation for learning right now so uni seems a bit of a pain, however thats obviously not the case for everyone and as much as i complain i'm glad i went, for the experience of it all as well as the educational aspect.

[Smason5]

maybe you will do the same thing when you leave uni but the experience of uni you can never gain again and friends you meet are for life. I think the prob is that you may be happy now but in years to come you will want more and won't be able to get it with no degree quali possibly. You are in a way giving yourself an upperlimit but its up to you. Not everyone is for uni. But i would give it serious thought and i'm sure 2/3 months is enough to get your brain going again. Good luck. I unlike you am looking foward to uni, i can't wait and can do nothing but think about it. i have wanted to go uni for a long time. I hope results go well and for u too btw.

[DaneCook]

The only people who are scared of going to Uni are those who are going in to do piddly piss up subjects like Language/History/Art/Media etc.

All that crap that no one cares about. If you're going to take up the debt, you better have a career path planned out, especially one that is feasible. In the current climate, going to Uni for the sake of it is retarded.

Attaining a crappy degree in a crappier field is even worse. Don't bother if you don't plan on working in a field that has demand. Truth hurts.

[littleone271]

(Original post by Rancorous)
You've fallen for what the sleezy carsalesmen who sold the policy said. 'Buy now, satisfaction guaranteed!' They don't want you to focus on the total debt, but the individual repayments. Actually it's very likely debt will be written off, because of the interest you can pay over 100k for these loans and still owe more. Tthe vast majority of graduates will pay over what they borrowed. Yes, at first you pay 400 to 1k or so a year, but when you earn more when you're in your 30s, 40s and 50s you'll be shelling out 5-10k a year, every year. What most students don't realise is the salaries at that level are higher but income tax destroys salaries, I.e 100k after tax is closer to 60k, plus adults earning higher salaries have greater fixed costs, I.e children, mortgage....and most adults pay into a pension to survive in their old age. What the policy does is to take much more money from graduates over the course of their lifetimes, like these dodgy policies which say no payment up front. So yes, you are gullible.

I'm not gullible. I can appreciate what you are saying but for most of the people that went to uni, their jobs are at least partly as a result of having that degree, even if it's in an irrelevant subject area.

Uni isn't just about the career prospects afterwards either, it's about broadening your horizons and for a lot of people it's an instant way of becoming independent. In my opinion it's worthwhile even if it doesn't forward your career much.

[littleone271]

(Original post by DaneCook)
The only people who are scared of going to Uni are those who are going in to do piddly piss up subjects like Language/History/Art/Media etc.

All that crap that no one cares about. If you're going to take up the debt, you better have a career path planned out, especially one that is feasible. In the current climate, going to Uni for the sake of it is retarded.

Attaining a crappy degree in a crappier field is even worse. Don't bother if you don't plan on working in a field that has demand. Truth hurts.

I agree that some degrees seem fairly useless for the purpose of career progression but I think university is a good thing to do in terms of broadening your horizons and making you a more interesting person.

You could argue that in the current economic climate as it's so difficult to find work, education is the best place to be. After all, a degree is something positive that you'll have for life and if nothing else, it will prove to employers that you're intelligent and motivated.

[Nomes89]

(Original post by Kaylaleigh)
thanks for al the responses!
Thing is I was 100% sure about uni before I got this job at Tesco. Since starting I've found I enjoy the work for what it is, I don't want too much responsability from a job, but maybe that's just because I'm young. The people I work with too make the job 100x more enjoyable too. I mean from what I can make out of it, I would love the lifestyle at uni and the social side would be great. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't just be going for that. I really want to become fluent in French, however I know there are other routes I can take to accomplish this other than uni. I just don't want to feel like I miss out. I think if I were to become fluent I'd just do some translation or something on the side of my main job, so I can say I use my skills.

Overall I really want to go to uni, I think I just need a year out. I've been in education for 14 years now, I need a break. Loads of people have a year out first anyway so it's not like I'd go into halls being the odd one out.

Would UEA look poorly on my application next year though if I decided to pull out? And how might they feel about deferring me after results day? because I need all the thinking time I can get and I don't want to pull out or defer then come august change my mind when it is too late.

If you want to become fluent in French then actually I'd advise against going to university. Instead save up some money and go work abroad...as you've already been studying it since you were 11 (I imagine) it would take you a year to develop a good level of fluency - much quicker and cheaper than four years of a degree. As for the social side, there's no reason you can't have a good social life outside of uni especially if you have a good group of friends and work colleagues. I took a year out before uni and it was one of the best years for me because you actually have money to go out and you don't have to worry about assignments. Take time to figure out what you want and in the time it takes people to study a degree you could build a a few years of solid work experience; one thing I advise though if you are going to take the 'no degree' route is to be pro-active and aim to progress within the company you work for. If you work at Tesco there are great opportunities at head office (these are the jobs that could pay 100k, not working in store as a manager btw) so long as you make good use of your experience in store e.g. pay attention to consumer spending habits and tastes etc.

Do not listen to people selling you their ideas of what is good for your future because quite frankly they haven't really listened to what you said. You don't want to go uni, so don't. If you change your mind you can always apply at a later date, many people do this. One of the best things you can do (and harness this skill) is 1. to trust your instincts 2. don't be mainstream and follow what everyone else is doing - take some risks 3. take your time with big life changing decisions (especially the ones with financial implications), time is not running out

[Nomes89]

(Original post by Rancorous)
You've fallen for what the sleezy carsalesmen who sold the policy said. 'Buy now, satisfaction guaranteed!' They don't want you to focus on the total debt, but the individual repayments. Actually it's very likely debt will be written off, because of the interest you can pay over 100k for these loans and still owe more. Tthe vast majority of graduates will pay over what they borrowed. Yes, at first you pay 400 to 1k or so a year, but when you earn more when you're in your 30s, 40s and 50s you'll be shelling out 5-10k a year, every year. What most students don't realise is the salaries at that level are higher but income tax destroys salaries, I.e 100k after tax is closer to 60k, plus adults earning higher salaries have greater fixed costs, I.e children, mortgage....and most adults pay into a pension to survive in their old age. What the policy does is to take much more money from graduates over the course of their lifetimes, like these dodgy policies which say no payment up front. So yes, you are gullible.

I agree totally agree. If people think it's worth it, then that's fair enough but being ignorant to the fact it is debt and will have significant financial implications does mean the government have successfully managed to brainwash the large majority. We are the first generation for many years that will be worse off than our parents; few of us will be owning our own homes at least not until very late in life. This doesn't seem to dawn on a lot of people.