[AverageExcellence]

A while ago i was having a discussion with some people about this in our history class and they were sure that Irish people are not of the same race as say scottish or welsh.

Even if you do argue that People of Norman origin are not the same as Gaelic then surely these people do share common ancestory and therefore are the same people.

But today i was reminded of it because i got my doctors form back and it asked me to state what race i am, either white british, white irish, or white other (presuming slavic peoples).

Is this differentiation purely for 'political' purposes to stress the separation of the countries or are the two different?

[Psyk]

Define race.

This is why the concept of race is rarely used in any scientific sense, it's too hard to define where one race begins and ends. Are white people all one race? Are Russians a different race to Swedes?

I think that form really should have asked for your ethnicity. Ethnicity is different from race because it also takes cultural and language differences into account.

[Foo.mp3]

We all share common ancestry if you want to look back far enough no?

For my money the Gaelics are indeed distinct, although perhaps not so much from the Welsh/Britons or some Scots (picts ~ celtic), certainly from the Anglo-saxon/Norman jobbies

Think it's origin lies in an ethnic distinctions made in the 20th century but perhaps its remanence is political. My ancestors are from all over these isles (inc. Ireland and Southern Scotland)

[Snagprophet]

Well they're European so they're the same race. If you mean civilisations like Celts and Germanics then no. These civilisations interbred and intermarried. The modern equivalent of such a civilsation is nation states like the UK.

Edit: Explain your neg

[Bronze Thistle]

Yes they are the same race. Different ethnicities however.

[Chi019]

Paper on European genetic substructure here.

An interesting observation in this study is that within the “northern” European population group, individuals of Irish descent showed substantial differences in substructure compared to participants of Scandinavian, Central, and Eastern Europe descent. It also appears that United Kingdom individuals were intermediate between the other non-Irish groups and those of Irish descent further supporting an east/west gradient (Table 2). However, the later observation is based on small numbers of individuals (six 4GP United Kingdom individuals). It is unclear whether these relationships may reflect remnants of early populations including differences in Mesolithic or Neolithic contributions to the Irish population 5,000–6,000 years ago [28], or later Celtic contributions. An extensive Neolithic contribution from the Iberian peninsular is consistent with Irish archeological information but it is unknown whether this population group survived [28,29]. As discussed above, it is difficult to determine the relationship between certain population groups and the suggestion of a cline extending from the Spanish to Irish population is tenuous based on the current data. However, we note that there is modest support for such a cline in both PC2 and PC3 (Figures 2C and 6)

[democracyforum]

(Original post by Psyk)
Define race.

This is why the concept of race is rarely used in any scientific sense, it's too hard to define where one race begins and ends. Are white people all one race? Are Russians a different race to Swedes?

I think that form really should have asked for your ethnicity. Ethnicity is different from race because it also takes cultural and language differences into account.

Where one ends and begins ? Sure you can.

Can you tell the difference between a red bell pepper and an orange one ?
They might look similar to some people, but there is enough difference between them.

[Psyk]

(Original post by democracyforum)
Where one ends and begins ? Sure you can.

Can you tell the difference between a red bell pepper and an orange one ?
They might look similar to some people, but there is enough difference between them.

Well yes, if you look at two extremes there are obvious differences. But there are people and entire groups of people that don't obviously fit into one of the small set of races. Genetic variation is too continuous to fit into a discrete set of races.

For example are Pakistanis and Afghans the same race? If they are different races, what is it that makes them different races?

[RyanT]

Different ethnicity of a wider northern European race.

[Bronze Thistle]

(Original post by RyanT)
Different ethnicity of a wider northern European race.

This

[MancStudent098]

My dark age history is a bit dodgy but I'm fairly sure that the Scotii came from Ireland.

That said it's a bit pointless trying to define people into discrete racial categories anyway.

[democracyforum]

(Original post by Psyk)
Well yes, if you look at two extremes there are obvious differences. But there are people and entire groups of people that don't obviously fit into one of the small set of races. Genetic variation is too continuous to fit into a discrete set of races.

For example are Pakistanis and Afghans the same race? If they are different races, what is it that makes them different races?

Pakistani and Afghan are nationalities.
Within nationalities there is sometimes different ethnic groups.

Also, the boundaries have already been determined and are socially accepted.


Look at wikipedia, list of ethnic groups.
Also look at the British census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classif...United_Kingdom

[Psyk]

(Original post by democracyforum)
Pakistani and Afghan are nationalities.
Within nationalities there is sometimes different ethnic groups.

Also, the boundaries have already been determined and are socially accepted.


Look at wikipedia, list of ethnic groups.
Also look at the British census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classif...United_Kingdom

Ah, now you're talking about ethnic groups, not races. I suppose physical attributes (such as skin colour) are one aspect of ethnicity, but they also take into account culture and language.

I'm not saying the idea of race doesn't exist at all, it's just that it don't see how there can be a discrete number of races. However many races you say there are, there will be people who don't clearly fit into any of them (and not just people who have parents of different races).

[Sharpshooter]

No English, Scottish and Welsh are clearly the same race.

The Irish are completely different.

[Suetonius]

But of course. The human race.

[democracyforum]

(Original post by Psyk)
Ah, now you're talking about ethnic groups, not races. I suppose physical attributes (such as skin colour) are one aspect of ethnicity, but they also take into account culture and language.

I'm not saying the idea of race doesn't exist at all, it's just that it don't see how there can be a discrete number of races. However many races you say there are, there will be people who don't clearly fit into any of them (and not just people who have parents of different races).

Your point that some people cannot fit into the established categories, proves what ?

[Psyk]

(Original post by democracyforum)
Your point that some people cannot fit into the established categories, proves what ?

I'm saying that it's very hard to say whether Irish and British people are different races. There has been so much contact between the two populations you can't really identify a clear line between the two in terms of physical attributes.

[Snagprophet]

What is interesting is why anyone's interesting in a dividing distinction between them.

[Flair91]

Yes Irish and British are pretty much genetically indistinguishable.

[Sharpshooter]

(Original post by Flair91)
Yes Irish and British are pretty much genetically indistinguishable.

Really?? A lot of people said I couldn't be English as I wasn't racially anglo-saxon/germanic (my parents are Irish).