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Are 'native' Irish and British the same race?

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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    I don't think you're ready for intellectual discussions if this is your ethos. You should have left this disregard for academic debate in secondary school.

    The biological classification of 'life' is disputed. Ensure you understand that something being 'alive' and something being classed as 'life' are two different concepts.
    But in Britain we do classify people by ethnicity !

    So it is irrelevant if it is a social construct or not.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    But in Britain we do classify people by ethnicity !

    So it is irrelevant if it is a social construct or not.
    "The points of agreement in the following articles reflect a shared evolutionary perspective that focuses on describing and interpreting the apportionment of biological variation between individuals both within and among groups (see also Lee et al., 2008). We agreed that:
    • There is substantial variation among individuals within populations.
    • Some biological variation is apportioned between individuals in different populations and among larger population groupings.
    • Patterns of within- and among-group variation have been substantially shaped by culture, language, ecology, and geography.
    • Race is not an accurate or productive way to describe human biological variation.
    • Human variation research has important social, biomedical, and forensic implications."

    "There was really only one fundamental difference of opinion among the symposium participants, which was about the precise nature of the geographic patterning of human biological variation" (Edgar and Hunley, 2009; Caspari, 2009; Edgar, 2009; Gravlee, 2009; Hunley et al., 2009;Konigsberg et al., 2009; Long et al., 2009; Ousley et al., 2009; Relethford, 2009; Wolpoff, 2009).

    The academic world disagrees. It's incredibly naive to suggest something as pervasive as 'race' does not have any implications; it's tantamount to saying people in various parts of Nigeria treat witchcraft as a real phenomenon, so there should be no attempt to challenge this belief.
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    (Original post by Pyramidologist)
    .
    I would say the UCA is similar to the Big Bang (and numerous other scientific theories where the inception cannot be observed). There is no completely conclusive evidence or certainty about what happened or the exact dynamics of it, and people are not yet able to perfectly reconcile all the evidence available, but numerous pieces of disconnected pieces of evidence exist that all indicate the presence of a Big Bang, or something of that nature. Of course, there are alternative theories, but most of what has been observed would require the Big Bang to have happened.
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    However most people do classify themselves as an ethnicity and identify with a racial group !

    But if it is a social construct, which it isn't, we have still have the issue of race and IQ, race and crime etc which prove maybe it isn't.
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    (Original post by Pyramidologist)

    The Indian Genome Variation Consortium (2005) recognises four major morphological types in India - Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid and Negrito:




    No breakdown though of specific subtypes. You do have to dig up earlier anthropological literature, however this does not mean they are outdated.

    If you look through all the earliest reports on crania from the Indus Valley, you will see most the Caucasoid crania is just labeled ''Mediterranean''. It was Eickstedt (1934) who introduced all the other Caucasoid typological terms based on local or tribal variations. The only website that uses these is Apricity, however i've been on their forum and its pretty much a troll site.
    Try Skadi, they do racial classifications of people, but most of them are self taught morons rather than experts.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    However most people do classify themselves as an ethnicity and identify with a racial group !
    So what? Most people say they are citizens of a country, but it doesn't mean countries are not social constructs.

    But if it is a social construct, which it isn't, we have still have the issue of race and IQ, race and crime etc which prove maybe it isn't.
    Demonstrate it isn't a social construct by resolving the logical problem and accounting for Barbujani and Belle's (2006) conclusion.
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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    I would say the UCA is similar to the Big Bang (and numerous other scientific theories where the inception cannot be observed). There is no completely conclusive evidence or certainty about what happened or the exact dynamics of it, and people are not yet able to perfectly reconcile all the evidence available, but numerous pieces of disconnected pieces of evidence exist that all indicate the presence of a Big Bang, or something of that nature. Of course, there are alternative theories, but most of what has been observed would require the Big Bang to have happened.

    Your point of trying to prove race is a social contruct is what ?

    That we are all the same ?

    Only skin colour is our difference ? Culture maybe ?
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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    So what? Most people say they are citizens of a country, but it doesn't mean countries are not social constructs.

    Demonstrate it isn't a social construct by resolving the logical problem and accounting for Barbujani and Belle's (2006) conclusion.

    Perhaps it maybe a social construct.

    But it doesn't change the fact that in most societies people think there are different races and judge you from your skin colour, your phenotype, which comes from your genotype, thus deciding what race you are - and deciding if you should be discriminated against.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Your point of trying to prove race is a social contruct is what ?

    That we are all the same ?

    Only skin colour is our difference ? Culture maybe ?
    Why don't you try reading my posts? Not once have I said we are the same, but that the derivatives of the logical premise of 'difference' cannot be arbitrarily selected and still classified as objective.
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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    Why don't you try reading my posts? Not once have I said we are the same, but that the derivatives of the logical premise of 'difference' cannot be arbitrarily selected and still classified as objective.
    So you are trying to say we cannot racially classify people .
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Perhaps it maybe a social construct.

    But it doesn't change the fact that in most societies people think there are different races and judge you from your skin colour, your phenotype, which comes from your genotype, thus deciding what race you are - and deciding if you should be discriminated against.
    Society changes, and once 'race' is no longer given the significance amongst policy makers it so wrongly receives, it will begin to fade in public consciousness over the generations.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    So you are trying to say we cannot racially classify people .
    Not objectively.
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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    Not objectively.
    Okay, but the definition of race is not certain either.

    If it is simply a phenotpye and skin colour, then there are different races, and this would be the most simple definition of a race of people.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Okay, but the definition of race is not certain either.

    If it is simply a phenotpye and skin colour, then there are different races, and this would be the most simple definition of a race of people.
    Nobody's phenotype or skin colour is the same (they are gradational and modifiable by external forces), so why are we all not our own 'race'?
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    Ireland were not invaded anywhere near as much as England, and so while there will be many similarities as at one time there genetics would be identical there will be a number of genetic differences. However with the question of race Irish and English are from he same race just like the French, Germans ect
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    (Original post by Pyramidologist)
    Lateral genetic transfer does not discredit polypyletism, it supports it. Prior to understanding lateral genetic transfer in cells, evolutionary biologists never questioned UCA/monophyletism which was dogma. As soon as lateral or horizontal gene transfer however was discovered, biochemists now support the independant origin of the earliest life forms. There is no evidence whatsoever for universal common descent. The common genetic code and similarity can be explained through horizontal genetic transfer.

    In regards to subspecies or race, geneflow (genetic migration) explains genetic commonality, but races do not share common descent, they evolved from different ancestors but are just connected through peripheral geneflow.

    Like lateral genetic transfer, geneflow is not vertical, but horizontal. So for example: A evolved from B, C evolved from D, C mates with A, but C and A are of independent or seperate racial origin (B and D). Do you understand? And that's Multiregional and Polygenism in a nutshell. The latter is just taking back the seperate linages to the beginning, rather than only to Homo Erectus for example.
    ...I think you need to reread my post and perhaps my references. The LUCA theory is not incompatible with independent origins of life and there is overwhelming evidence in favour of it. The LUCA theory is virtually ubiquitous in biology, but reconciling the various traits of the putative domains is what has yet to be achieved. The type of network is what is disputed: "We might entertain different sorts of hierarchical, multidimensionally clustered or reticulated classifications for different sorts of purposes. Alternatively, we could stick with current rRNA-based or total-proteome classifications, with the full admission that at the very best they are only just 'more natural' than other systems, in that more (or more 'fundamental') data may support them. But as with the placement of books on library shelves, there is in principle, no final truth of such matters" (Doolittle, 2009). Nothing here is compliant with the two questions I presented a few posts ago; until they can be answered you cannot make a pretension to objectivity.

    I've already invalidated any concept of 'race' in respect to phylogeny, and models with mitochondrial gene flow are 20-32 times less likely than models without it. You never responded to my point: how does this have any bearing on anything below the putative domain stage? Abby et al. (2012) demonstrated a monophyletic tree can still be constructed even with LGT.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    However it is completely irrelevant. Look at the British census ethnic section, do they ask you the origins of humanity and who your great ancestors were ? No.

    They simply ask your nationality and ethnicity
    Exactly. They don't ask for your race.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Exactly. They don't ask for your race.
    So ? So what if they did ?

    Ever heard of affirmative action.
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    (Original post by whyumadtho)
    ...I think you need to reread my post and perhaps my references. The LUCA theory is not incompatible with independent origins of life and there is overwhelming evidence in favour of it. The LUCA theory is virtually ubiquitous in biology, but reconciling the various traits of the putative domains is what has yet to be achieved. The type of network is what is disputed: "We might entertain different sorts of hierarchical, multidimensionally clustered or reticulated classifications for different sorts of purposes. Alternatively, we could stick with current rRNA-based or total-proteome classifications, with the full admission that at the very best they are only just 'more natural' than other systems, in that more (or more 'fundamental') data may support them. But as with the placement of books on library shelves, there is in principle, no final truth of such matters" (Doolittle, 2009). Nothing here is compliant with the two questions I presented a few posts ago; until they can be answered you cannot make a pretension to objectivity.

    I've already invalidated any concept of 'race' in respect to phylogeny, and models with mitochondrial gene flow are 20-32 times less likely than models without it. You never responded to my point: how does this have any bearing on anything below the putative domain stage? Abby et al. (2012) demonstrated a monophyletic tree can still be constructed even with LGT.

    So what if things are social constructs .

    Football is a social construct. So are lots of things. Being a social construct is irrelevant to the discussion.

    The discussion being - that different races do exist.
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    10% of Ulster scots clergy gave sermons in gaelic

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