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I support the death of the current EU (part 1)

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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    The EU will never die, since the founding of the ECSC 62 years ago with the Schuman Declaration and the Treaty of Paris the EU has evolved and enlarged.

    I admit reforms are needed but to say the EU will Die is preposterous
    Note that I said "the death of the current EU". That is to say I want big reforms in the EU that will mean the death of the current EU. Many of its policies, including the Euro currency/union, need to be scrapped.

    One of the few things that I'd keep from the EU is the free trade between the EU countries. But I'd scrap things like the free movement of people across EU borders.

    But if heavy reforms aren't made to the EU, then we should leave the union.
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    (Original post by ukip72)
    Get a grip, further integration will do nothing for the UK. Just because we have an awkward relationship with the EU that doesn't prevent us from ignoring absurd EU rulings as we should.
    Then what does prevent us from doing so? If it's not the fact that we're not hegemonic within the EU, then it must be to do with our national character (social constructivist theory). If so, it's still our fault.
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    (Original post by Arekkusu)
    Then what does prevent us from doing so? If it's not the fact that we're not hegemonic within the EU, then it must be to do with our national character (social constructivist theory). If so, it's still our fault.
    What are your feelings/thoughts on the bureaucratic nature of the EU? Would you rather the public had a say on who was voted in each department of the EU? Would you rather the public had more of a say in the direction of the EU? Or are you happy with the status quo?
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    (Original post by Cable)
    What are your feelings/thoughts on the bureaucratic nature of the EU? Would you rather the public had a say on who was voted in each department of the EU? Would you rather the public had more of a say in the direction of the EU? Or are you happy with the status quo?
    There is talk from Guido Westerwelle of merging the Commission President and European Council President into a single post which is Elected. Also given the Parliament the right to initiate Legislation.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18557059
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    (Original post by Cable)
    Could be true. But as ukip said, maybe we can ignore some of their rules without needing to integrate further. However, after my threads on the EU, further integration with the EU would be the last thing on our minds. We need to get the hell away from the EU (but maintain a free trade agreement).
    Wouldn't a free trade agreement be subject to sanctions if we deviated too much from the EU zeitgeist? Particularly seeing as cheaper price and better quality can be found within the EU.

    With arbitrary post hoc sanctions, there might be more leeway for doing our own thing, but is it worth it when bridges are being burnt? That's not a rhetorical question.

    From a practical point of view it's absolutely unprecedented for a country to secede from the EU, so if we blinked first there would be no going back. And quite apart from a cautious national character here in the UK, that's a very scary thought for any political economist trying to steer the UK ship towards land. Imo nothing will happen unless and until a pre-2004 country secedes, which is why in practice France and Germany will do whatever they can to keep Greece in, because if Greece go, somewhere like Spain might slip out the door behind them, and that's a pre-2004 country.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    What are your feelings/thoughts on the bureaucratic nature of the EU? Would you rather the public had a say on who was voted in each department of the EU? Would you rather the public had more of a say in the direction of the EU? Or are you happy with the status quo?
    Please feel free to apprise me of where you think the bureaucracy is as I am not abreast of these issues. I am not really very aware of which UK legislation has been brought in as a result of EU directives, nor of any wastefulness or spilling of seed upon the ground which may go on in the EU institutions.

    I am all for making the EU more democratic and accountable as well as for increasing the domestic profile of European elections in proportion to how much influence they actually have.

    Sorry to be such a rank amateur/annoying idiot for not knowing facts but I haven't got time to care about it all. One hears a lot of pro-EU stuff from every side and only incoherent anti-EU from the tabloids. A digestible and reasonably considered Eurosceptic opinion would be nice to hear
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    Why part 1? Are you planning on writing us a novel?
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    (Original post by Arekkusu)
    Wouldn't a free trade agreement be subject to sanctions if we deviated too much from the EU zeitgeist? Particularly seeing as cheaper price and better quality can be found within the EU.

    With arbitrary post hoc sanctions, there might be more leeway for doing our own thing, but is it worth it when bridges are being burnt? That's not a rhetorical question.

    From a practical point of view it's absolutely unprecedented for a country to secede from the EU, so if we blinked first there would be no going back. And quite apart from a cautious national character here in the UK, that's a very scary thought for any political economist trying to steer the UK ship towards land. Imo nothing will happen unless and until a pre-2004 country secedes, which is why in practice France and Germany will do whatever they can to keep Greece in, because if Greece go, somewhere like Spain might slip out the door behind them, and that's a pre-2004 country.
    I don't want to give too much away as it's integral to my future threads. But yes, we can maintain a free trade agreement via EFTA like Switzerland or the EEA like Norway etc. Of course, we would have to be careful to not appear too anti-EU when we negotiate our departure. We'll have to play things safe and cool. We#ll have to negotiate in a friendly manner to maintain as good relations with the EU as possible.

    Btw, we have a trade deficit with the EU. Meaning that they need us, more than we need them in monetary terms. They need our money which goes to their exports.

    There would be no going back if we leave the EU. But we have the world to gain. We can develop and increase our relationship and trade with non-EU countries like Switzerland have. That combined with the free trade with the EU means that our economy will still be strong and get even stronger in the future.

    It is unlikely that the likes of Italy or Greece will leave because there are many financial problems with doing so (e.g. the troubles the banks have when they revert to their original currencies). But if it were possible that the problems won't be that bad (which is unlikely), then I support the break up of the Euro and heavy reform in the EU. But if the EU stays the way it is, then we should leave and we'll be fine.
    Hope that answers your question.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    I don't want to give too much away as it's integral to my future threads. But yes, we can maintain a free trade agreement via EFTA like Switzerland or the EEA like Norway etc. Of course, we would have to be careful to not appear too anti-EU when we negotiate our departure. We'll have to play things safe and cool. We#ll have to negotiate in a friendly manner to maintain as good relations with the EU as possible.

    Btw, we have a trade deficit with the EU. Meaning that they need us, more than we need them in monetary terms. They need our money which goes to their exports.

    There would be no going back if we leave the EU. But we have the world to gain. We can develop and increase our relationship and trade with non-EU countries like Switzerland have. That combined with the free trade with the EU means that our economy will still be strong and get even stronger in the future.

    It is unlikely that the likes of Italy or Greece will leave because there are many financial problems with doing so (e.g. the troubles the banks have when they revert to their original currencies). But if it were possible that the problems won't be that bad (which is unlikely), then I support the break up of the Euro and heavy reform in the EU. But if the EU stays the way it is, then we should leave and we'll be fine.
    Hope that answers your question.
    If your in the EEA you still have to adopt EU Legislation without representation in the EU Institutions.
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    (Original post by Arekkusu)
    Please feel free to apprise me of where you think the bureaucracy is as I am not abreast of these issues. I am not really very aware of which UK legislation has been brought in as a result of EU directives, nor of any wastefulness or spilling of seed upon the ground which may go on in the EU institutions.

    I am all for making the EU more democratic and accountable as well as for increasing the domestic profile of European elections in proportion to how much influence they actually have.

    Sorry to be such a rank amateur/annoying idiot for not knowing facts but I haven't got time to care about it all. One hears a lot of pro-EU stuff from every side and only incoherent anti-EU from the tabloids. A digestible and reasonably considered Eurosceptic opinion would be nice to hear
    Cool. But it will have to wait till later in the weekend cos' I'm tired right now lol. But nice to see that you're interested in the EU topic and hopefully you'll be able to come to a sound conclusion on whether to be pro or anti-current EU.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    If your in the EEA you still have to adopt EU Legislation without representation in the EU Institutions.
    Yeah, I'm aware of that. Which is why I'd prefer the EFTA.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    There is talk from Guido Westerwelle of merging the Commission President and European Council President into a single post which is Elected. Also given the Parliament the right to initiate Legislation.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18557059
    Good.

    But not enough unfortunately.
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    (Original post by ukip72)
    Has it ever occurred to you that people are Eurosceptic because the EU is a pointless, wasteful, bureaucratic, expensive, anti democratic mess, not because they've been brainwashed?
    It occurs to me that a lot of people are plebs who don't properly analyse the pros and cons of organisations and what they do, and that these plebs are a serious issue when it comes to fixing the many genuine issues the EU has.
    (Original post by Cable)
    Yeah, I'm aware of that. Which is why I'd prefer the EFTA.
    And here we have the problem. Join the EFTA!

    ...AND HAVE THE LIONS SHARE OF REGULATION THROWN AT US WITHOUT HAVING THE ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE, VETO OR DISCUSS THE CREATION OF NEW LEGISLATION.
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    (Original post by ukip72)
    What makes you believe we'd lose it?
    Because people care about their jobs and multinationals who are here BECAUSE of our relationship with the EU would be threatening to leave.

    Money talks, and the pro-EU side would have so much more support from people who actually have it.
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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    And here we have the problem. Join the EFTA!

    ...AND HAVE THE LIONS SHARE OF REGULATION THROWN AT US WITHOUT HAVING THE ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE, VETO OR DISCUSS THE CREATION OF NEW LEGISLATION.
    No. We can negotiate our own bilateral free traade agreements with the EU via the EFTA, meaning that we won't have regulations passed onto us unless we have consented to them somehow via the initial bilateral free trade agreement. The regulations that will be chucked at us would be far fewer than those chucked at us as a full member of the EU. The point is that we will have more control of what goes on in our country. And if we are clever and maintain many strong links with the EU where essential, we can still have a bit of influence on what regulations are passed onto us (although it may be ineffective if the majority of the EU vote against us).

    If the EU proves too stubborn to accept bilateral agreements on our own terms via EFTA, then we can attempt to completely re-negotiate all terms with the EU on our own (although that will take many years).

    The only way we would have ****loads of regulation thrown at us without our consent would be if we were in the EEA. But even then, so what? It's not like we would be able to stop/repeal all the laws and regulations as an EU member as long as the majority of the union vote against us.
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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    .
    What are your feelings/thoughts on the democracy (or lack of) of the EU? Would you rather the public had a say on who was voted in each department of the EU? Would you rather the public had more of a say in the direction of the EU? Apparently, the president of the council is now to be directly elected. Is that good enough?

    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    Because people care about their jobs and multinationals who are here BECAUSE of our relationship with the EU would be threatening to leave.
    Would you care to link me to where I can find information about these apparent EU-linked jobs?

    And what about the jobs that can be created by less regulation from the EU and using the £7.4bn that we give to the EU to develop our economy and create more jobs in the UK?
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    European Federalism will happen but is a long way off. It is a way to compete internationally with the changes on the global stage.
    No it isn't and it's about a lot more than competing on the global stage. It wouldn't impact on every area of what should be domestic law otherwise. [Anybody can look up policies and legislation on the European Commission's website here.] Don't take anything at face value though.

    Take a look at the effects of the Common Fisheries Policy for instance. The shameful practice of 'discards' has again been fudged. If fish could wave flags they certainly wouldn't wave EU ones. What do you think of the "Justice and citizens' rights" policy? As far as I can tell, there is nothing about Habeas Corpus or the right to a jury trial in it. How do you rate the European Arrest Warrant?

    What do these policies have to do with competing on the global stage? The EU's share of global trade has gone down over the years anyway and with its overarching bureaucracy it seems incapable of reversing this trend.
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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    It occurs to me that a lot of people are plebs who don't properly analyse the pros and cons of organisations and what they do, and that these plebs are a serious issue when it comes to fixing the many genuine issues the EU has.And here we have the problem. Join the EFTA!

    ...AND HAVE THE LIONS SHARE OF REGULATION THROWN AT US WITHOUT HAVING THE ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE, VETO OR DISCUSS THE CREATION OF NEW LEGISLATION.
    Two words: majority voting.

    We don't have any negotiating power worth anything because, like all member states, we have such a small share of the vote. EU negotiations are horse trading affairs and are no way to treat policies affecting millions of people. We don't have vetoes on huge swathes of legislation the EU has the right to pass.

    A member of the European Commission once described EFTA membership as "rights without responsibilities". EU membership is responsibilities and costs without sufficient rights or benefits to compensate in my view.

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