[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by johnnn)
If you think orange walks are mostly about hatred and bigotry then you have to take a look at yourself and wonder if its not you that is the one is a bigot. I've seen many orange walks go down very very smoothly and it is only silly young men wearing celtic tops claiming there irish catholics when they neither have been to ireland in there life or been to chapel in the past say 5 years.

So you think the Orange Order has no responsibility whatsoever and they AREN't unnecessarily provoking the republicans no?

[That Bearded Man]

The 12th Marches are a disgrace.

Let's break it down, first of all, it highlights the victory of William of Orange against James II - fair enough, although that was a win for PROTESTANTS against CATHOLICS - if England decided to march through South Africa during Apartheid would that have been wel received?

The Parades Commission didn't go down hard enough on the march - it should have been a one way march and they should NEVER have marched through Ardoyne - what did they expect?

And then they have the audacity to claim that THEY are discriminated against by the Parades Commision, the Republicans spoilt what was a legitamite parade etc.

The willingness of loyalists and unionists, especially mps to wash all protestant hands during the march is disgraceful.

Nelson mcCausland was on the Stephen Nolan show, his main point was "they are entitled to walk home"

Yes, let them, no need to march twice.

Also, relevently, this, they WERE singing the Beach Boys tbf.

Jesus Christ

http://www.u.tv/News/Loyalist-band-p...7-ab6288693d41

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by Martyn*)
I saw this problem in Liverpool - although without the violence - when the supporters of the local Orange Order (Protestant crypto-Freemasonry) in Anfield started singing anti-Catholicism songs. I think the schism between Protestantism and Catholicism runs very deep in Ireland; historically there was always antagonism between Catholics and Protestants such as that which resulted in the Nine Years War. This violence has its origins in the anarchy felt towards the authority of the Catholic Church, by that I mean Luther and Calvin.

In Ireland, moreso by the Plantation, whereby Protestants settled from abroad and established themselves as the authority, beginning several decades of Protestant superiority.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Orange walks have every right to exist. Violence is wrong and as long as no violence is committed by the members of the walk then I see no issue. The OP is wrong here. He clearly has some agenda behind posting that video. Where to be frank nothing really happened.

As for football then its a pretty big deal in regards to this issue in Scotland and both countries in Ireland.

What I don't understand is this... and I'm wondering if someone on here can enlighten me.

The normal Joe bloggs down the street usually say "Rangers and celtic" or "catholics and protestants" or whatever are as bad as each other. Well I'm sorry but how can a british citizen possibly regard people who support terrorist organisations whether it be financially or verbally in the same category as people who associate with the British cause in Northern Ireland. Yes the Loyalists have their vices but generally they are looking out for Britain and the Brits. Whereas Republicans have been responsible for countless British deaths. How can an average British and I musts stress British citizen possibly class them equally as bad?

I'm curious at what point did loyalists become disliked by their own countrymen?

I disagree completely about a legitimate right to march because they don't actually fight, they deliberately provoke the other side and considering the absolute sectarianism involved, you can't dismiss that as "banter"

Your last point is interesting, shouldn't all Brits be supporting loyalists and dismiss the republicans as terrorists?

Firstly, Brits, and the world, like Irish people, it's hard to really consider them enemies.

Also, when I think both Britain and Ireland want to stay out of Northern Ireland, can't blame them, it's been nothing but trouble since it's inception.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by L i b)
To briefly attempt a definition of terrorism, it is the spreading of fear through violence or the threat of violence with the aim of blackmailing a state into some political act. The idea that a state could terrorise itself is bizarre and frankly not worth discussing - particularly insofar as the state has the legitimate right to use violence for its political ends. That is not to say the idea of 'state terrorism' is completely bunk, but your terminology is entirely off in this case.

Have they collaborated with terrorists? No. Some members within them have, which is a criminal offence and has been subsequently investigated.

Have members of these services done things wrong? Undoubtedly. Every army and every police force in history has examples of illegal or immoral activity within its ranks. In any other discussion - except one apparently polarised by sectarian division - that would go without saying.

The British never spread fear to Catholics in Northern Ireland?

Naive viewpoint

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by snailsareslimy)
Ah, the good old 'Orange Walks' conversation topic. It's not as if I've heard this one hundreds of times, but I'll put in my 2 cents regardless.
(I'm from Northern Ireland and I'd refer to myself as agnostic.)

I'm completely fine with the walks taking place (although I never go to any); it's an important part of Northern Irish culture, and people obviously want to celebrate William of Orange's victory, and therefore keeping Ireland within the British Crown. I'm also fine with people not liking it; it's understandable that if you're passionate about a united Ireland, that you'd find such events distasteful.

But, what I do have an issue with, are the little scum bags running around the streets throwing petrol bombs etc at the police/people in general. Firstly, it appears that very few of these people actually understand anything to do with Irish history. Do they actually know what they're fighting for? I'd assume most don't, as they look 15 and are wearing chavvy attire and remind me of the kids who do no work in school. Secondly, if you're so passionate about fighting for ______, then why do you cover your faces? You're not very heroic there, trying to avoid being caught by the police... Pearse and the likes didn't cover their faces; in fact, they were proud of their actions, so why don't you follow the same line? (If someone could actually answer this for me, I'd appreciate it; I've always wondered )
I'll also repeat this point for those on the other side who carry out similar attacks. It's disgusting and shouldn't be condoned at all.

I also feel that the Walks shouldn't go through Catholic areas, and any demonstrations from the other side shouldn't be in Protestant areas; yes, it's not going to appeal to everyone, but there's no need to rub each others faces in it and it would be a lot more peaceful if it was done this way (I'd like to hope, anyway).

That aside, violence in the 21st century is wrong and people, from both sides, need to start realising that we are all humans. By being a Catholic, Christian, Protestant, whatever... it's the same God. God is not going to appreciate you killing others over religion; it's written in the bible in black and white! Also, doesn't God tell us to 'love your neighbour' and to 'love your enemies'?
If anyone was fighting over religion, they'd realise this immediately, and therefore it's resulted in people fighting for the sake of it, which disgusts me to the core. I'm honestly so fed up with hearing about shootings, petrol bomb attacks, attempted and actual murders over sectarian issues; it makes me ashamed to live in this country.

Hopefully people from both sides can get over the actions that happened hundreds of years ago and learn to live together in harmony, although that will never happen; not in my lifetime, anyway.

(Also, sorry if the points I've raised have been mentioned before, I can't be bothered reading it all )

Have to say as a nationalist I will debate some of your points.

I understand they want to celebrate their culture bla bla bla but they need to do more to criticise, criticise the flag burning, sectarian chanting etc.

Until that comes I will view the OO as a a sectarian organisation.

At least there isn't so much support for violence any more, throwing bricks and burning cars is just plain violence, no cause, pointless.

How many people commenting here are also from NI do you reckon?

[snailsareslimy]

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Have to say as a nationalist I will debate some of your points.

I understand they want to celebrate their culture bla bla bla but they need to do more to criticise, criticise the flag burning, sectarian chanting etc.

Until that comes I will view the OO as a a sectarian organisation.

At least there isn't so much support for violence any more, throwing bricks and burning cars is just plain violence, no cause, pointless.

How many people commenting here are also from NI do you reckon?

I definitely don't agree with the sectarian chanting, flag burning etc, it makes me incredibly embarrassed :\ I just feel that if they want to celebrate their culture, they can easily do it in a respectful way (but I guess many are just copying what their families have told them etc etc, on both sides really... such a shame.)

Yeah, it's good to see a general consensus against it, but I wish it would all stop, no one wants a return of the Troubles again :\

And I have no idea, I haven't read very much of the thread so I wouldn't know! Probably around half at a guess...

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by snailsareslimy)
I definitely don't agree with the sectarian chanting, flag burning etc, it makes me incredibly embarrassed :\ I just feel that if they want to celebrate their culture, they can easily do it in a respectful way (but I guess many are just copying what their families have told them etc etc, on both sides really... such a shame.)

Yeah, it's good to see a general consensus against it, but I wish it would all stop, no one wants a return of the Troubles again :\

And I have no idea, I haven't read very much of the thread so I wouldn't know! Probably around half at a guess...

Sorry, by condemn the chanting, I mean the Orange Order should, MP's should. I'm sure the average Joe Protestant does condemn all this. As always we have to talk about the extremists, my point is the extremists should be condemned on all sides, but it seems our lovely Stormont leaders and the organisation in charge of the whole thing have not.

[snailsareslimy]

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Sorry, by condemn the chanting, I mean the Orange Order should, MP's should. I'm sure the average Joe Protestant does condemn all this. As always we have to talk about the extremists, my point is the extremists should be condemned on all sides, but it seems our lovely Stormont leaders and the organisation in charge of the whole thing have not.

I actually thought MP's and Orange Order did condemn the chanting, especially those higher up. Of course, you'll have the super anti _______ ones on both sides but again, they're a minority.
Realistically though, most MP's are useless so I don't value their opinions much anyway

[TrevorBrisance]

What the original poster says about orange walks being about hatred and bigotry is just plain horlicks. They are marches to celebrate victory in battle and they are actually completely peaceful except for a few nut cases on both sides of the divide. I will not call it the "relgious divide" because these people have not a bit of religion in them, they have absolutely no relationship with God and are just yobs with fancy uniforms. That said the huge majority of orange walks are peaceful and do bring a great sense of community, they are not about hatred and bigotry but a small number of participants (such as those in the video) use them as channels for these viewpoints.

It is easy to notice that the op mentions only a few minutes of 1 parade in Northen Ireland at which a disgraceful event took place and fails to even mention or consider the huge numbers of walks that took place in complete peace all across the province and indeed the world.

[billydisco]

(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
As do the loyalist.

See this website, it ends in co.UK

If you dont want to be part of the UK p**s off to Ireland and take all your celtic mates with you......

What kind of pr@t lives in a country they despise?

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by snailsareslimy)
I actually thought MP's and Orange Order did condemn the chanting, especially those higher up. Of course, you'll have the super anti _______ ones on both sides but again, they're a minority.
Realistically though, most MP's are useless so I don't value their opinions much anyway

I don't believe I'll ever see the Orange Order behave as you say, as an example, in the facade outside the Church, UTV reported pathetic excuses by the Flute band and no outright criticisms by a unionist MP or by the Order.

I do agree they are useless though.

[Left Hand Drive]

(Original post by billydisco)
See this website, it ends in co.UK

If you dont want to be part of the UK p**s off to Ireland and take all your celtic mates with you......

What kind of pr@t lives in a country they despise?

No thanks I love Scotland but your right I do no longer want to be part of the UK.

Don't know, what kind of prat makes stupid assumptions unknowingly?

[TOSCS]

(Original post by billydisco)
See this website, it ends in co.UK

If you dont want to be part of the UK p**s off to Ireland and take all your celtic mates with you......

What kind of pr@t lives in a country they despise?

Hahahah oh dear, what a moron.

[Sheep]

in my town every year when there is these 'orange walks' it inevitably ends in a bunch of violence and arrests

I don't really see why they continue with it tbh