BPTC 2012 results.
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BPTC 2012 results.Does anyone have any idea on the pass rate for this years BPTC?
From my own institution's figures, it seems as if this years pass rate was quite a bit lower than previous years.
What's the news from other providers? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.Why doesn't the BSB publish the pass rates for each subject at each institution and also the overall pass rates at each institution, as soon as the information is available, in the interests of transparency?
Probably because it would put new students off from taking the BPTC!
Students need to realise that the BPTC is just a money making scam! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.Just talking to a friend about this. I am inclined to agree.(Original post by tammy2012)
Students need to realise that the BPTC is just a money making scam! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.The BPTC is not a money making scam for those who have a realistic prospect of obtaining pupillage. The problem is that an awful lot of people take the course who do not have a realistic prospect of obtaining pupillage, and the institutions do not do enough in my opinion to deter or prevent those people from taking the course. That is where a lot of the bad feeling comes from, and rightly so.
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.A realistic prospect of obtaining pupillage is no definite guarantee that you will obtain pupillage, therefore those who still do not obtain it (despite a realistic prospect) have been subjected to a money making scam.
Don't take my word for it, just take a look at the stats!
In addition, even those who have obtained pupillage think that the course is a complete waste of money. Most of the content of the BPTC is self-taught. All students really need is well written highly detailed Bar Manuals / Revision notes / DVD demonstrations of the skills, that actually contain the information that will be examined.
Most of the teaching (if you can call it that) is totally sub-standard garbage! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.Rubbish. Paying money for any undergraduate or postgraduate course is a calculated risk because none come with a guarantee of finding a job at the end. On your definition the course is a scam unless everyone is guaranteed to obtain pupillage at the end, which is simply preposterous logic.(Original post by tammy2012)
A realistic prospect of obtaining pupillage is no definite guarantee that you will obtain pupillage, therefore those who still do not obtain it (despite a realistic prospect) have been subjected to a money making scam.
I'm wondering who these people are that you're talking about, and exactly what stage you are at personally, because certainly the strong views you have expressed in this thread and another recently seem to be sourced from the opinions and experiences of others rather than yourself. Personally I obtained pupillage after completed what was then the BVC, and considered it to be an enjoyable and competent course. It is not perfect, but there is always going to be a leap between teaching and practice. It is a necessary course because there has be a gap bridged between the entirely academic law degree and the entirely practical day to day practice of a barrister. The BPTC seeks to bridge that gap. Is it perfect? No. There is room for improvement, but there always is with things like this. As it is I certainly think it's competent enough.(Original post by tammy2012)
In addition, even those who have obtained pupillage think that the course is a complete waste of money. Most of the content of the BPTC is self-taught. All students really need is well written highly detailed Bar Manuals / Revision notes / DVD demonstrations of the skills, that actually contain the information that will be examined.
Most of the teaching (if you can call it that) is totally sub-standard garbage! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.I think that there is a lot which could be changed. Personally, I'd like to see the number of places on the BPTC reduced, with numbers broadly reflecting the number of pupillages. I would like for there to be tougher requirements to be fulfilled before one can enroll on the course and for there to be an entry test.
When it comes to the bar, there has always been a bottleneck. At the moment, it is in the wrong place: between BPTC and pupillage, which is the wrong place for a number of reasons, but namely because people will have incurred huge cost to reach this point. Introducing the above mentioned changes would help to move the bottleneck to a more suitable position - post degree/pre BPTC.
Of course there will be opposition to the proposed changes, some reasonably legitimate, but the main underlying reason for opposition on the part of law schools will be that such changes will reduce the number of students and therefore revenue. In this sense, I do believe that the BPTC is a huge money spinner; law schools will regularly take on students who do not have any chance of becoming barristers. This, I believe, is plain wrong.
Anyway - If people could provide information on how their course provider fared in this year's exams, I'd be most grateful. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.From my limited knowledge of such things, I believe medical students do have very good prospects of employment post degree. The thing is though, you picking one course out of hundreds fits right into the 'exception that proves the rule' section. The point is that you seem to think that the BPTC is a scam unless you get a pupillage at the end, which is a ridiculous position.(Original post by tammy2012)
'Paying money for any undergraduate or postgraduate course is a calculated risk because none come with a guarantee of finding a job at the end.'
Medical students seem to do ok!
I agree with the general view that you have on this, indeed I have the same one. Though I can't say I agree that numbers should broadly resemble the number of pupillages available. I think that would be too restrictive in a number of ways, not least that I don't think you can accurately assess students pre BPTC as to their prospects of securing pupillage to the extent that you could fairly cut numbers by that amount.(Original post by InnerTemple)
I think that there is a lot which could be changed. Personally, I'd like to see the number of places on the BPTC reduced, with numbers broadly reflecting the number of pupillages. I would like for there to be tougher requirements to be fulfilled before one can enroll on the course and for there to be an entry test.
When it comes to the bar, there has always been a bottleneck. At the moment, it is in the wrong place: between BPTC and pupillage, which is the wrong place for a number of reasons, but namely because people will have incurred huge cost to reach this point. Introducing the above mentioned changes would help to move the bottleneck to a more suitable position - post degree/pre BPTC.
Of course there will be opposition to the proposed changes, some reasonably legitimate, but the main underlying reason for opposition on the part of law schools will be that such changes will reduce the number of students and therefore revenue. In this sense, I do believe that the BPTC is a huge money spinner; law schools will regularly take on students who do not have any chance of becoming barristers. This, I believe, is plain wrong.
Anyway - If people could provide information on how their course provider fared in this year's exams, I'd be most grateful. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.There are ways you could do this. One way would be to make it a requirement of entry to the BPTC that students either have major Inns funding, or a pupillage already secured. This would greatly reduce the number of students that end up spending over £16k and a year of their life on a qualification that they never use.(Original post by Crazy Jamie)
Though I can't say I agree that numbers should broadly resemble the number of pupillages available. I think that would be too restrictive in a number of ways, not least that I don't think you can accurately assess students pre BPTC as to their prospects of securing pupillage to the extent that you could fairly cut numbers by that amount.
The main flaw I can see with this is that some international students have no intention of seeking an English/Welsh pupillage, but find the BPTC qualification useful when they return to their home jurisdiction. I'm not entirely sure what the solution to this problem would be. One possibility could be drawing a distinction, in terms of entry requirements to the BPTC, between those students who do and those who do not intend to practise in England and Wales. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.There was a solution to this when the BVC was introduced.(Original post by beastfromtheeast)
The main flaw I can see with this is that some international students have no intention of seeking an English/Welsh pupillage, but find the BPTC qualification useful when they return to their home jurisdiction. I'm not entirely sure what the solution to this problem would be. One possibility could be drawing a distinction, in terms of entry requirements to the BPTC, between those students who do and those who do not intend to practise in England and Wales.
Tuition for the old bar exam was entirely optional which is why you can read in memoirs of people reading for the bar in Colditz and other odd places.
The income of the Inns from Victorian times depended on large numbers of colonial students who never intended to practise in England.
When in the late 1970s/ early 1980s the BVC was created with mandatory course attendance, the old bar exam was kept going for at least a decade.
You had to do the BVC if you wanted to practise in England but if you didn't (overseas students/legal academics/law reporters and a few others) you could still sit the old bar exam.
The idea of having two separate bar qualifications, one that entitled someone to practise and the other that did not, is therefore not new. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.Medical students are in a different position because the bottleneck is in getting into medical school- they've restricted the number of places on medical courses at unis in line with the number of jobs available at the other side.
There have been calls for this to happen at the bar and it seems the most sensible solution (as outlined above) but I have a sneaky feeling that threads like this would them become littered with complaints about how students who may make perfectly good barristers can't get on the course, who are the course providers to decide people's future, why not let people get on with it and take the risk themselves then try to find pupillage because they'll be in a stronger position to do so once they've done the BPTC? etc. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.If it was a requirement of entering the BPTC that you needed to have obtained a pupillage, then people would not be asking "who are the course providers to decide people's future". Because it wouldn't be the course providers making that decision, but the chambers themselves, when deciding whether to offer a particular person a pupillage or not. So the same people - pupillage committees - would be deciding who makes it and who doesn't as make that decision now; the difference is that those who don't make it would know this before spending £16k and a year of their life doing the BPTC.(Original post by Ewok)
Medical students are in a different position because the bottleneck is in getting into medical school- they've restricted the number of places on medical courses at unis in line with the number of jobs available at the other side.
There have been calls for this to happen at the bar and it seems the most sensible solution (as outlined above) but I have a sneaky feeling that threads like this would them become littered with complaints about how students who may make perfectly good barristers can't get on the course, who are the course providers to decide people's future, why not let people get on with it and take the risk themselves then try to find pupillage because they'll be in a stronger position to do so once they've done the BPTC? etc.
Also, people couldn't claim that it is unfair because they would be in a stronger position to obtain a pupillage after the BPTC, if it was a rule for everyone that a pupillage must be obtained before starting the BPTC. Admittedly, if such a rule were introduced, there would be a rather inconvenient transitional period where some students did the BPTC before this rule was made, but obviously an exception would have to be made for them.Last edited by beastfromtheeast; 15-07-2012 at 09:27. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.I am afraid chambers are simply not geared up for the number of applications this would bring. Good large common law sets could well see 10000 or more applications. It is the financial and practical implications which tend to deter all but the most committed to the bar. If virtually every law student had a free hit at a pupillage in the summer between their 2nd and 3rd years and for 2 or 3 years thereafter, the numbers would be uncontrollable.(Original post by beastfromtheeast)
If it was a requirement of entering the BPTC that you needed to have obtained a pupillage, then people would not be asking "who are the course providers to decide people's future". Because it wouldn't be the course providers making that decision, but the chambers themselves, when deciding whether to offer a particular person a pupillage or not. So the same people - pupillage committees - would be deciding who makes it and who doesn't as make that decision now; the difference is that those who don't make it would know this before spending £16k and a year of their life doing the BPTC.
Also, people couldn't claim that it is unfair because they would be in a stronger position to obtain a pupillage after the BPTC, if it was a rule for everyone that a pupillage must be obtained before starting the BPTC. Admittedly, if such a rule were introduced, there would be a rather inconvenient transitional period where some students did the BPTC before this rule was made, but obviously an exception would have to be made for them. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.Yeah, that is a good point. I suppose I hadn't entirely thought that part through. Still, there certainly does need to be some mechanism of preventing such a vast number of students entering the BPTC. It can't be right that there are 5 times as many BPTC students as there are pupillages (or whatever the statistic is).(Original post by nulli tertius)
I am afraid chambers are simply not geared up for the number of applications this would bring. Good large common law sets could well see 10000 or more applications. It is the financial and practical implications which tend to deter all but the most committed to the bar. If virtually every law student had a free hit at a pupillage in the summer between their 2nd and 3rd years and for 2 or 3 years thereafter, the numbers would be uncontrollable. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.I applied for the BPTC (and got offers), but after further consideration - and advice from almost all of the barristers that I did mini-pups with - I decided against it, partly because the odds of gaining pupillage and then tenancy are stacked so heavily against you. CoL is charging more than £16k to do the course. They know full well the statistics, yet they encourage people with 2:2s, poor communication skills, and a myriad of other 'problems', to do the course. In my opinion, that kind of behaviour is unethical. And then they're classed as a 'charity'!
I don't begrudge them for making a profit. I don't expect them to 'guarantee' you a job, simply by virtue of having done the course. But I do take issue with the fact that, knowing the infamous 1 in 8 statistic*, knowing that the publicly funded bar is going through a crisis period, they continue to cram as many people onto their course, misleading students as to their prospects - all the literature I was given was full of stuff about how transferable and desirable the BPTC is outside the legal world, which I highly doubt. I believe that a cap was ruled to be anti-competitive, but something more should be done to redress the balance which is ludicrously biased towards the institutions.
*I know it might be different depending on whether you are a "realistic" candidate for pupillage or not, but you get the idea. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 results.Certainly not a ruling. It has been claimed that there is advice to this effect but I think this falls in the same category as Elf n'Safety and Data Protection as convenient excuses for not doing the unpalatable.(Original post by geetar)
I believe that a cap was ruled to be anti-competitive
If you want to build a superstore, open a casino or hot food takeaway or run a taxi and seek the appropriate consents, you will frequently be met, as the reason for refusal, with the statement that there is no unmet need.
