[Study]

Ok so say a woman gets raped in Saudi Arabia they even give punishment to the woman>
I just do not understand this. They claim to be going by Qur'an Hadith etc but when I looked some hadith up I got these :

During the time when Umar (raa) was the Khalifah, a woman accused his son Abu Shahmah of raping her; she brought the infant borne of this incident with her to the mosque and publicly spoke about what had happened. Umar (raa) asked his son who acknowledged committing the crime and was duly punished right there and then. There was no punishment given to the woman. (Rauf)

Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

No punishment given to any of the women who got raped, any idea where the Saudi's get this from?

Edit : If your negging me, at least tell me why.

[boba]

I think its more that they twist the passages that they can to "justify" what they want to do rather than the read it properly and try to follow it honestly believing that its inline with the religion

[boba]

also "allah has forgiven you"??
forgiven?!

[NuckingFut]

(Original post by boba)
also "allah has forgiven you"??
forgiven?!

Yes, meaning she did nothing wrong so there is no punishment for her

[Study]

(Original post by boba)
also "allah has forgiven you"??
forgiven?!

Normally sex before marriage or w/e is a sin. Shows if you get raped you aren't in the wrong.

[Alpharius]

These nations just hate women.

(Original post by boba)
also "allah has forgiven you"??
forgiven?!

I thought that too, forgiven for being a victim of rape? ****ed-up priorities.

Forgiven implies wrong-doing, which implies the rape victim was in the wrong.

[boba]

(Original post by Study)
Normally sex before marriage or w/e is a sin. Shows if you get raped you aren't in the wrong.

(Original post by NuckingFut)
Yes, meaning she did nothing wrong so there is no punishment for her

erm exactly. you (and she) havn't done anything wrong at all so there should be nothing to be forgiven for

[Killuminati1989]

What u are forgetting is that u are talking about a Wahhabi run government. They follow the extreme and corrupt teachings of Mohammed ibn Abdul Wahhab. He wrote passages condoning terrorism, suppression of women's rights, condoned the destruction of the prophet's mosque, etc...

[Greenlaner]

(Original post by Study)
Normally sex before marriage or w/e is a sin. Shows if you get raped you aren't in the wrong.

Er no. You usually only forgive somebody, if they have done something wrong in the first place.

[Azaro]

In Islam there is only distinction between sex within and sex outside marriage. women having sex outside marriage is nit allowed, and when its rape their worth is half as much worth as a man's claim. s in order to prove rape she needs 4 witnesses

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by boba)
erm exactly. you (and she) havn't done anything wrong at all so there should be nothing to be forgiven for

edit: you meant that quote?

Zina (illegal intercourse) still happened, but due to the circumstances it wasn't her fault.

And in that culture society, she would've been seen as "impure" etc. even if it was rape, and would've been judged on that basis. And she herself would've felt guilty because of it, and thought that she's also in the wrong.

That's why the Prophet(pbuh) is telling her she did nothing wrong and God has forgiven her as a reassurance of her innocence.

(Original post by Study)
Ok so say a woman gets raped in Saudi Arabia they even give punishment to the woman>
I just do not understand this. They claim to be going by Qur'an Hadith etc but when I looked some hadith up I got these :

During the time when Umar (raa) was the Khalifah, a woman accused his son Abu Shahmah of raping her; she brought the infant borne of this incident with her to the mosque and publicly spoke about what had happened. Umar (raa) asked his son who acknowledged committing the crime and was duly punished right there and then. There was no punishment given to the woman. (Rauf)

Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

No punishment given to any of the women who got raped, any idea where the Saudi's get this from?

Edit : If your negging me, at least tell me why.

Firstly, this doesn't happen in Saudi, it happened like once in a century or whatever, and even the Saudi's themselves made a massive deal out of it. What are you going to say if there is a case of cannibalism in the UK every 40 years? That brits are cannibals?

Amnesty International/human rights are always after Saudi, but even they (apart from the one case) did not say much else regarding their rape system, because they know it's a rare occurrence.

Now, the reason why the girl got punished, was because;

a) She lied to the police
b) She was having a secret affair for a long time "before the rape incident" with another man, which is fornication that is not allowed in Islam.

^She got whipped for that, not for "getting raped".

Many details were left out, and since then people have continuously fed on what little they know.

ps. You're getting negged by Islamaphobes, you don't need a reason more then that.

[boba]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Actually she did.



Firstly, this doesn't happen in Saudi, it happened like once in a century or whatever, and even the Saudi's themselves made a massive deal out of it. What are you going to say if there is a case of cannibalism in the UK every 40 years? That brits are cannibals?

Amnesty International/human rights are always after Saudi, but even they (apart from the one case) did not say much else regarding their rape system, because they know it's a rare occurrence.

Now, the reason why the girl got punished, was because;

a) She lied to the police
b) She was having a secret affair for a long time "before the rape incident" with another man, which is fornication that is not allowed in Islam.

^She got whipped for that, not for "getting raped".

Many details were left out, and since then people have continuously fed on what little they know.

ps. You're getting negged by Islamaphobes, you don't need a reason more then that.

oh really?. you are aware I'm talking about the woman in the OPS quote right? not a woman in the case you are talking about above which I know nothing about and therefore will make no comment on.

What exactly did the woman who was forgiven for being raped do wrong that she needed forgiveness for?

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by boba)
oh really?. you are aware I'm talking about the woman in the OPS quote right? not a woman in the case you are talking about above which I know nothing about and therefore will make no comment on.

What exactly did the woman who was forgiven for being raped do wrong that she needed forgiveness for?

I edited my post.

The whole "God has forgiven you" is an Islamic term used for any sin someone is forced to commit. It's a reassurance that it isn't there fault, that they have nothing to blame themselves on etc.

For example; when the Muslims were being persecuted/tortured, they had to denounce their faith or they could die. By denouncing their faith, they felt like they were committing a major sin, but they were forced into it, and so the same term, that God has forgiven them, was used as a reassurance to their innocence.

It's fine if someone says it's not your fault, but for some people that's not enough, since they would feel God is angry at them. With a Prophet(pbuh) who has a direct link from God saying it's fine, you have nothing to worry about, God forgives etc. It removes that feeling of guilt immediately.

[liftorrot]

I lived in Saudi for 17 years... I don't recall rape victims being punished for something that was done to them against their will , though during my stay I did witness one beheading done on an unrelated issue ( drugs). Not sure about the current situation.

[boba]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
I edited my post.

The whole "God has forgiven you" is an Islamic term used for any sin someone is forced to commit. It's a reassurance that it isn't there fault, that they have nothing to blame themselves on etc.

For example; when the Muslims were being persecuted/tortured, they had to denounce their faith or they could die. By denouncing their faith, they felt like they were committing a major sin, but they were forced into it, and so the same term, that God has forgiven them, was used as a reassurance to their innocence.

ok fair enough.
my personal opinion is that, that phrase is still really badly/ stupidly worded.
but that is a lot better than the horrible implications I originally thought it contained.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by boba)
ok fair enough.
my personal opinion is that, that phrase is still really badly/ stupidly worded.
but that is a lot better than the horrible implications I originally thought it contained.

I added more to my post at the bottom, but you need to take context in it as well.

People are concious for these things that they would always blame themselves, and if they're strong believers in God, they may feel God is angry at them etc. It's a horrible feeling, not to mention how society may view them after that.

Anyways, here's the hadith;

---

The Prophet(pbuh) said;

“Allah (T) has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness and what they are coerced into doing.”

- Related by Ibn Mâjah, approved by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr and al-Albânî.

---

[mel0n]

The woman in the case you're referring to that took place in Saudi, as Perseveranze said, was not punished because of the alleged rape itself and in no way can that case be taken as one indicative of how the rape law in Saudi works. You've conveniently elided (or probably not even bothered to look up) how rare an occurence it is and the ratio of this case to how many there have probably been that have not ended in this way - of course such cases probably wouldn't be brought up in the media as often because they're in no way apparently oppressive or sensational enough to ignite hatred

[Azaro]

(Original post by liftorrot)
I lived in Saudi for 17 years... I don't recall rape victims being punished for something that was done to them against their will , though during my stay I did witness one beheading done on an unrelated issue ( drugs). Not sure about the current situation.

no of course not, their lives will turn into an even greater hell when they speak out or go to the police

[xXxiKillxXx]

(Original post by Azaro)
no of course not, their lives will turn into an even greater hell when they speak out or go to the police

In what way?

[boba]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
I added more to my post at the bottom, but you need to take context in it as well.

People are concious for these things that they would always blame themselves, and if they're strong believers in God, they may feel God is angry at them etc. It's a horrible feeling, not to mention how society may view them after that.

Anyways, here's the hadith;

---

The Prophet(pbuh) said;

“Allah (T) has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness and what they are coerced into doing.”

- Related by Ibn Mâjah, approved by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr and al-Albânî.

---

(Original post by Perseveranze)
I edited my post.

The whole "God has forgiven you" is an Islamic term used for any sin someone is forced to commit. It's a reassurance that it isn't there fault, that they have nothing to blame themselves on etc.

For example; when the Muslims were being persecuted/tortured, they had to denounce their faith or they could die. By denouncing their faith, they felt like they were committing a major sin, but they were forced into it, and so the same term, that God has forgiven them, was used as a reassurance to their innocence.

It's fine if someone says it's not your fault, but for some people that's not enough, since they would feel God is angry at them. With a Prophet(pbuh) who has a direct link from God saying it's fine, you have nothing to worry about, God forgives etc. It removes that feeling of guilt immediately.

I just meant that it would be better for them to say something like "god doesn't blame you" or something along those lines rather than "got forgives you"

but like I say its a minor thing about the fact I personally think it could be phrased better I don't think its an actual issue if its common knowledge what its meant to mean