[dpb23]

...is as far as I can tell, a way of tricking god via a technicality.

Seriously, if I were religious, I'd think twice about trying to con my creator.

Discuss.

[Fynch101]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is it (besides a form of banking supposedly sanctioned by islam?), and what is the 'technicality'?

[NuckingFut]

(Original post by dpb23)
...is as far as I can tell, a way of tricking god via a technicality.

...how?

[dpb23]

The concept of interest, as I understand it, is unacceptable in Islam.

So an 'acceptable' bank account recreates the precise same outcome of receiving interest via clever linguistics.

If I was a god, I doubt i'd be fooled.

Whoever gave this thread negative rep, there is nothing racist here. I am only trying to spark a debate. Why is every conversation concerning religion immediately taboo.

[PrismaticCore]

(Original post by dpb23)
The concept of interest, as I understand it, is unacceptable in Islam.

So an 'acceptable' bank account recreates the precise same outcome of receiving interest via clever linguistics.

If I was a god, I doubt i'd be fooled.

Whoever gave this thread negative rep, there is nothing racist here. I am only trying to spark a debate. Why is every conversation concerning religion immediately taboo.

I'm a muslim myself and can't stop having this debate with my parents.

In my eyes, it's basically the same thing as 'normal' interest.

You can try and reword it in every way possible, but you're paying back more than you have taken out.

[smithsmith]

Its not at all clever linguistics, its a completely different process

Let me give you an example of mortgages

Here in England you get a mortgage to buy a home which you pay interest on. The house is yours, you own it, but you owe the bank money, which you pay interest on what you borrowed, and also if you fail to pay your debt to the bank you loose the house to them by failing on your payments which they make your contract upon, so if you fail to pay your debt they take your house.

on the other side

"In an Islamic mortgage transaction, instead of loaning the buyer money to purchase the item, a bank might buy the item itself from the seller, and re-sell it to the buyer at a profit, while allowing the buyer to pay the bank in installments. "

So basically, you ask the bank to buy the house for you. = they own the house. They let you buy the house of them in installments but they own the house till you pay it of. Therefore its not interest because there is no debt, you keep giving them installments until you have bought the house of them. The way the banks keep in business is when they buy the house they sell it to you for a higher price but let you pay in installments likened to a mortgage.

so, Interest = interest mortgage , but you own the house

Non-interest = no interest, bank owns the house, until you buy it of them

Hope this helps differentiate how interest applies.

Interest is taken out of the equation, its not a technicality as there is a difference in possession of an item in the said circumstance

[Fynch101]

(Original post by smithsmith)
Its not at all clever linguistics, its a completely different process



Interest is taken out of the equation, its not a technicality as there is a difference in possession of an item in the said circumstance

I see that as a legal technicality: naturally speaking, you are living in a house and paying the bank more than the house cost at the time of purchase, regardless of who owns it.

I say this because I think if there were to be a debate about which one was a better system, it wouldn't take long for everyone to agree that they're too similar to get in a tizz about. And tsr is a place of disagreement, if anything!

[M1011]

(Original post by smithsmith)
Its not at all clever linguistics, its a completely different process

Interest is taken out of the equation, its not a technicality as there is a difference in possession of an item in the said circumstance

Thanks for the explanation. It is a bunch of twaddle though, it's the exact same, you're paying more than the value to pay for the benefit of the banks loan/service. No interest technically, but it is nothing more then a technicality.

Interestingly, didn't it use to be impossible for most religious people to lend money at a profit? I believe I recall being told this was the reason Jewish people excelled as bankers traditionally, because they were allowed to loan money at a profit whereas the likes of Christians were not. Not sure if this is true, but definitely recall thinking it was perfectly plausible!

[tkane]

(Original post by smithsmith)
Its not at all clever linguistics, its a completely different process



Interest is taken out of the equation, its not a technicality as there is a difference in possession of an item in the said circumstance

All they've done is rename "interest" as "profit".

[Herr]

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[salmon1]

(Original post by Herr)
There is no such thing as a free lunch.

There is where I work

[Bronze Thistle]

Sharia Banking is a joke.

If Muslims cannot pay interest rates then they do not belong in this country.

[Bektas]

whilst I was looking at student accounts I stumbled accross this 'shariah compliant' account from HSBC...

http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/current-ac...h-bank-account

seems relevant to the thread.

[Aoide]

Thats ridiculous. Surely if god (assuming for a second he exists) didn't want interest there would be a reason, shariah banking involves exactly the same effects so what ever the undesirable effect is, it is still present. If an all powerful entity managed to create and maintain control over everything, he isn't going to be fooled by changing the name of the process.

[Venomilys]

Everything you see (not literally, but you know what I mean) has some interest attached to it. You are constantly handling interest every day of your life whether you like it or not. So these maneuvers to try and avoid interest is folly in the first place.

[FSP]

Its not a technicality, its all about intention. Intention in Islam is very i
Important.

Shariah finance is similar to german banking. In germany the banks buy a % of your buisness and you can buy them out later. Under that System the bank has a greater incentive in your success and less likely to pull the plug and get you declared bankrupt.

Intrest just makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. It an inefficient use of capital does not result in increase in economic output, it encourages consumers to buy thinks they cannot afford.

Austrian economist also believe the over supply of money gives the impression of economic growth when in reality its just a bubble.


So no its not stupid nor is it misleading god or anyone. You dont have to practise it but at least dont mock what you dont know

[FSP]

Islam strictly forbids the giving or taking of interest on any loan in any amount. Interest is defined as a set return on a loan, and as such implies a profit based on no risk or effort – a principle completely against Islamic ideals. Financial profit is a result of effort or risk (or both), and interest seeks to undermine the risk-based nature of trade. Furthermore, in many instances interest is exploitative – it is typically used as a means of deriving profit from the financially weaker members of society by a wealthy class in whose hands the lent money is concentrated. With these people, a loan is not a favor done to help others or the society, but is used as a means of oppression and undermines social cohesion. Islam forbids the hoarding or monopolizing of goods and services, such as sources of water, that are necessary for the continuation of life and that properly belong in the public domain. Such monopolies would harm the public for the sake of a gain in the hands of a select few, thus the Islamic system expressly forbids them.Giving Intrest free loans helping a local buisnessmen is seen as Charity and a religious duty. Similar to a co-operative or building society except the element of risk must be there. Intrest also encourages love of money you may be tempted to hoard money in the hope of higher intrest payments. Spending money on you and your family shows you are not beholden to it.Islam strongly discourages niggardliness and extravagence.

(Original post by Ilyas)
Everything you see (not literally, but you know what I mean) has some interest attached to it. You are constantly handling interest every day of your life whether you like it or not. So these maneuvers to try and avoid interest is folly in the first place.

Islam expect you in muslim countries to not pay intrest. If someone who you do buisness with or the shop dowm the road pays intrests thats mot your problem and you can still so buisness with them.
In non muslim countries some scholars say you can take a intrests based mortgage because of the different economic system and it being beyond your control.Your expected to make reasoble effort, your not expected to open your own shariah bank or remain in rented accomidation for ever

[dpb23]

I seem to have stumbled upon quite an emotive topic!

Surely interest is not, as you describe, a profit based on no risk or effort - you are taking risk by essentially putting your capital at stake. The effort made is then on the part of the bank. Why are spanish & greek bond yields far higher than those in Japan? (An identical concept to interest on a loan) - because the risk attached to making a loan to these states is higher.

Similarly, you will find that longer term deposits with banks on your personal capital will provide higher annualised interest rates; in exchange for this risk.

There really is no difference - you definitively DO risk your capital when you place your money in a bank account. The rate is low because this risk is relatively small.

I do agree with your ideological points (in a perfect world), but frankly choosing to live in a society which is so fundamentally capitalist and thus - as you describe - 'oppressive', seems curious. Also, in my opinion, Shariah compliant banking (per western banks, eg HSBC Amanah) exists SOLELY to make them profit; they are not charitable and the transaction to them is like any other account with subtly different labelling; is it acceptable in Islam to willingly be on the other side of that relationship, if the relationship itself forges oppression and eternal poverty?

[dpb23]

(Original post by smithsmith)
Its not at all clever linguistics, its a completely different process



Interest is taken out of the equation, its not a technicality as there is a difference in possession of an item in the said circumstance

Thanks for the explanation - sounds very intricate - but i'm sorry, interest is still involved. The bank will make a profit from you - this is their interest. Trust me, I analyse banks, and HSBC considers this as interest on their pnl.

The same parties take the same risks, everyone ends up in the same situation financially, and ownership 'effectively' changes hands at exactly the same time (if you default during the process I imagine the bank keeps the house - as they would with a western mortgage).

Isolating differences is pedantry - which brings me back to my core point; if I believed in a 'creator', and said creator forbade this, I wouldnt be tempted to 'find a way around it'. This in my opinion is what differentiates TRUELY religious people from the crowd - as inconvenient as the word of god may be, there is no circumventing it.

[zippyRN]

(Original post by Bronze Thistle)
Sharia Banking is a joke.

If Muslims cannot pay interest rates then they do not belong in this country.

the just pay 'rent' and 'fees' to the lender instead...