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Feminism - Sexism?

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    I do get the feeling that many who call themselves feminists today are pushing for the rights of women, not just equality. This is particularly the case in our generation, where women have absolutely no disadvantage, in terms of education, economics, etc.

    However, what I feel is the issue is that many only see the injustices that they have personally experienced, without seeing the others. For example a woman may complain about the whole player vs. sl*t thing, but will have no awareness of some inequalities that men face, such as the complete lack of trust from society and assumption of ulterior motives and sexual predation.
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    (Original post by fordfiesta)
    I do get the feeling that many who call themselves feminists today are pushing for the rights of women, not just equality. This is particularly the case in our generation, where women have absolutely no disadvantage, in terms of education, economics, etc.
    Lololololol. Completely and utterly untrue. Have you seen the state of the video game industry? That's where I'm working and we are far from being anywhere close to equal.

    Also, the inequalities of men are just as upsetting and unacceptable as the inequalities of women. But just because men also have them doesn't mean we should settle for it.
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    It's all well and good saying that feminism is about equal rights, but I'm afraid that when you have a situation where those claiming to be feminists are being blatant sexists (Harriet Harman among others comes to mind) I'm afraid that the definition of feminism being an egalitarian movement fails to hold water.

    Which is to say. That what feminism is an idealistic world, and what it actually is are two different things. Those marching under the banner of feminism (so to speak) hold attitudes which are very different to the dictionary definition of feminism. And I'm afraid that when reality's definition comes before that held in the dictionary.
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    (Original post by fordfiesta)
    I do get the feeling that many who call themselves feminists today are pushing for the rights of women, not just equality. This is particularly the case in our generation, where women have absolutely no disadvantage, in terms of education, economics, etc.

    However, what I feel is the issue is that many only see the injustices that they have personally experienced, without seeing the others. For example a woman may complain about the whole player vs. sl*t thing, but will have no awareness of some inequalities that men face, such as the complete lack of trust from society and assumption of ulterior motives and sexual predation.
    Eh?

    Take a look at the Houses of Parliament. How many women do you see there? And on company boards? How many women are on those?

    And what about the fact that 1 in 20 women in this country have been raped? And that 1 in 4 women in the UK will experience domestic violence in their lifetime?

    And beyond that, their are women in this country who are victims of honor killings. What about Shafilea Ahmed? And what about the little girls born in the UK who are sent to Africa by their families to undergo genital cutting?

    If you really think that we no longer need Feminism then I think that you need to take a closer look at the world around you.
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    Eh?

    Take a look at the Houses of Parliament. How many women do you see there? And on company boards? How many women are on those?

    And what about the fact that 1 in 20 women in this country have been raped? And that 1 in 4 women in the UK will experience domestic violence in their lifetime?

    And beyond that, their are women in this country who are victims of honor killings. What about Shafilea Ahmed? And what about the little girls born in the UK who are sent to Africa by their families to undergo genital cutting?

    If you really think that we no longer need Feminism then I think that you need to take a closer look at the world around you.
    Just because women are the minority in parliament, and company boards it does mean that there is necessarily discrimination going on.

    "1 in 4 women in the UK will experience domestic violence in their lifetime". That's a flawed statistic. Some of the things that constituted domestic violence in that statistic were. The giving of unwanted gifts, not talking to your partner, shouting, slamming doors, among others. Exaggerating statistics is very dangerous, because it can lead to a situation where genuine domestic violence is not taken seriously.

    What about little boys who have foreskins chopped off legally without their consent?

    And it's not like society condones violence against women. It's very much against it. THe fact that violent crime against women is not only a crime, but viewed by society as a crime that's more serious than violence against men is evidence that women are not being discriminated against, because they suffer violence.
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    I'm a feminist, always have been. A lot of people I know think of feminism as the opposite to chauvinism, which it isn't and shouldn't be. I don't think women should rule the world or are the better gender, just that we should all have equal rights and opportunities, regardless of all the ridiculous divides we can come up with - gender, race, age, whatever.

    Thinking that women are already on equal footing with men is absolute bull. There are plenty of examples, especially in the work environment, that show that we are still very much behind. Starting with how I'll find it harder to get a job outside of the service sector or reach a managerial level. And there are countless discriminations, countless underdogs, and not just women. My problem with others who claim to be feminists, or one of them, is that they go on and on about only women have suffered and how men have it perfect, when they don't, as they have also been oppressed and discriminated against and still are. To a lesser degree, maybe, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    -sigh- At the end of the day, people can take the word "feminism", just as they can any other word, and use it as an excuse or an argument against any number of things, and it seems that a lot of people don't even really know what it means.
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    (Original post by limetang)
    Just because women are the minority in parliament, and company boards it does mean that there is necessarily discrimination going on.

    "1 in 4 women in the UK will experience domestic violence in their lifetime". That's a flawed statistic. Some of the things that constituted domestic violence in that statistic were. The giving of unwanted gifts, not talking to your partner, shouting, slamming doors, among others. Exaggerating statistics is very dangerous, because it can lead to a situation where genuine domestic violence is not taken seriously.

    What about little boys who have foreskins chopped off legally without their consent?

    And it's not like society condones violence against women. It's very much against it. THe fact that violent crime against women is not only a crime, but viewed by society as a crime that's more serious than violence against men is evidence that women are not being discriminated against, because they suffer violence.
    But it does mean that there are barriers to women in some form. That is usually in the form of women taking on the bulk of childcare and being expected to do so. Also the fact that working women are expected to be the ones to make compromises in their careers for the sake of their family. Men are not.

    What you are describing is domestic abuse. Domestic violence comes under the heading as that but this is a separate statistic.

    But if you want other statistics; 2 women in England and wales are killed every week by a partner or former partner, 45% of female murder victims were killed by a partner or former partner.

    I also disagree totally with male infant circumcision but female circumcision is particular problem for the following reasons.
    1) Since it is illegal in the UK parents who want their daughters to be circumcised have to send them out of the country to have it done. It is therefore much more likely to be done in un-hygienic conditions leading to serious infections.
    2) Since female circumcision is also done when a child is slightly older (toddler or older) whereas male circumcision is usually done on babies the risk of mental trauma coming from the procedure is higher. Particularly as the improvised operations are rarely done under anesthetic and may be done with implements like kitchen knives and other tools totally unsuited to such procedures.
    3) Many types of female circumcision can lead to severe complications with sex, menstruation, pregnancy and childbirth which can lead to death, still birth and infertility.
    4) Female circumcision is done as part of a culture of female oppression. It is an attempt to control women's sexual natures, to preserve their virginity before marriage and keep them faithful during marriage. Male circumcision is usually performed because of ideas about cleanliness or due to religious views. Female circumcision is part of a systematic attempt to control and oppress women, male circumcision is not.

    But a huge amount of shame is still attached to being a victim of domestic abuse. Women (and also men of course) find it very difficult to come forward and report domestic abuse, only 35% of incidents of domestic abuse are reported, and women are on average assaulted 35 times before they call the police. Domestic abuse victims are often blamed for being willing to stay with men who abuse them and their is a lack of understanding about the complex psychological issues faced by domestic abuse victims and the hold that abusers often have over the abused.

    I would also disagree with your suggestion that "THe fact that violent crime against women is not only a crime, but viewed by society as a crime that's more serious than violence against men is evidence that women are not being discriminated against, because they suffer violence.". The fact is that their the prevalence of violence against women by their partners suggests that their is a culture in which women are still viewed as submissive to their partners and that many men use violence to control or (as they see it) discipline their partners or use them as a punchbag to vent their frustrations on.

    If violence against women really was completely condemned by society and viewed as unacceptable, then so many women would not be victims of domestic violence.

    However I will say this, that the "What about the men" arguments are not constructive and do not help address the issue. While men of course are also victims of domestic abuse and rape etc., the fact is that women face far more of it.

    Attempting to deal with the problems still faced by women in this country is not an attempt to belittle those faced by men. If you say that domestic violence against women is a matter for concern that does not mean you are saying that that against men is not. The two are not the same thing.
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    I'm a feminist, always have been. A lot of people I know think of feminism as the opposite to chauvinism, which it isn't and shouldn't be. I don't think women should rule the world or are the better gender, just that we should all have equal rights and opportunities, regardless of all the ridiculous divides we can come up with - gender, race, age, whatever.

    Thinking that women are already on equal footing with men is absolute bull. There are plenty of examples, especially in the work environment, that show that we are still very much behind. Starting with how I'll find it harder to get a job outside of the service sector or reach a managerial level. And there are countless discriminations, countless underdogs, and not just women. My problem with others who claim to be feminists, or one of them, is that they go on and on about only women have suffered and how men have it perfect, when they don't, as they have also been oppressed and discriminated against and still are. To a lesser degree, maybe, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    -sigh- At the end of the day, people can take the word "feminism", just as they can any other word, and use it as an excuse or an argument against any number of things, and it seems that a lot of people don't even really know what it means.
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'm a Feminist and proud to be one, but it's astonishing how many people assume that this means I must hate men, be a lesbian etc.

    In my view, the real core of Feminism is about breaking down gender stereotypes, as these are what lead to women being discriminated against. But these stereotypes are also responsible for when men experience gender bias.

    Custody of children usually going to the mother? Because a woman's role is to produce and rear babies.

    Male rape victims not taken seriously? Because men should always be up for sex and any that are not are weird and not a proper man.

    Feminism has huge amount that it can do for men as well. I just wish more people would realise this and that more people would talk about it.
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    But it does mean that there are barriers to women in some form. That is usually in the form of women taking on the bulk of childcare and being expected to do so. Also the fact that working women are expected to be the ones to make compromises in their careers for the sake of their family. Men are not.

    What you are describing is domestic abuse. Domestic violence comes under the heading as that but this is a separate statistic.

    But if you want other statistics; 2 women in England and wales are killed every week by a partner or former partner, 45% of female murder victims were killed by a partner or former partner.

    I also disagree totally with male infant circumcision but female circumcision is particular problem for the following reasons.
    1) Since it is illegal in the UK parents who want their daughters to be circumcised have to send them out of the country to have it done. It is therefore much more likely to be done in un-hygienic conditions leading to serious infections.
    2) Since female circumcision is also done when a child is slightly older (toddler or older) whereas male circumcision is usually done on babies the risk of mental trauma coming from the procedure is higher. Particularly as the improvised operations are rarely done under anesthetic and may be done with implements like kitchen knives and other tools totally unsuited to such procedures.
    3) Many types of female circumcision can lead to severe complications with sex, menstruation, pregnancy and childbirth which can lead to death, still birth and infertility.
    4) Female circumcision is done as part of a culture of female oppression. It is an attempt to control women's sexual natures, to preserve their virginity before marriage and keep them faithful during marriage. Male circumcision is usually performed because of ideas about cleanliness or due to religious views. Female circumcision is part of a systematic attempt to control and oppress women, male circumcision is not.

    But a huge amount of shame is still attached to being a victim of domestic abuse. Women (and also men of course) find it very difficult to come forward and report domestic abuse, only 35% of incidents of domestic abuse are reported, and women are on average assaulted 35 times before they call the police. Domestic abuse victims are often blamed for being willing to stay with men who abuse them and their is a lack of understanding about the complex psychological issues faced by domestic abuse victims and the hold that abusers often have over the abused.

    I would also disagree with your suggestion that "THe fact that violent crime against women is not only a crime, but viewed by society as a crime that's more serious than violence against men is evidence that women are not being discriminated against, because they suffer violence.". The fact is that their the prevalence of violence against women by their partners suggests that their is a culture in which women are still viewed as submissive to their partners and that many men use violence to control or (as they see it) discipline their partners or use them as a punchbag to vent their frustrations on.

    If violence against women really was completely condemned by society and viewed as unacceptable, then so many women would not be victims of domestic violence.

    However I will say this, that the "What about the men" arguments are not constructive and do not help address the issue. While men of course are also victims of domestic abuse and rape etc., the fact is that women face far more of it.

    Attempting to deal with the problems still faced by women in this country is not an attempt to belittle those faced by men. If you say that domestic violence against women is a matter for concern that does not mean you are saying that that against men is not. The two are not the same thing.
    What you said

    Edit: whenever I read the words "female circumcision" I remember this TV program I watched about young girls being forced to marry and be circumcised at 12 years old. There was this one girl who was huddling against a tree and in tears because she didn't want to marry and have sex with some guy in his twenties. Never forget that program until I die
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    Gross generalisation. Just like the Christian threads created by goons who assume that all Christians are celibate T-totals who have no life.

    Anyway, proceed with your judgemental attitude and you shall be great.
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'm a Feminist and proud to be one, but it's astonishing how many people assume that this means I must hate men, be a lesbian etc.

    In my view, the real core of Feminism is about breaking down gender stereotypes, as these are what lead to women being discriminated against. But these stereotypes are also responsible for when men experience gender bias.

    Custody of children usually going to the mother? Because a woman's role is to produce and rear babies.

    Male rape victims not taken seriously? Because men should always be up for sex and any that are not are weird and not a proper man.

    Feminism has huge amount that it can do for men as well. I just wish more people would realise this and that more people would talk about it.
    I didn't see this message until I'd already quoted your other one. Whoops

    It is surprising how many people misinterpret it when I openly "admit" to being a feminist, and how many people don't understand that gender stereotypes affect just about everybody and work both ways :confused:

    I know, feminism shouldn't just be for the ladies. Chauvinism is most cartainly not restricted to men; I've met plenty of girls who actually believe that they don't deserve the same rights/opportunities as men
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    What you said

    Edit: whenever I read the words "female circumcision" I remember this TV program I watched about young girls being forced to marry and be circumcised at 12 years old. There was this one girl who was huddling against a tree and in tears because she didn't want to marry and have sex with some guy in his twenties. Never forget that program until I die
    I think I watched a similar programme on the BBC about child marriage.

    I was literally in tears, there was this one girl of 15 who'd been forced to marry and had got pregnant and her body couldn't cope with it.

    She was from a rural area of India with no medical care and she was in labour for days and her baby died during it.

    She was left with a fistula due to the physical trauma of the labour and she was constantly leaking urine as a result. Because of this she was abandoned by her husband and inlaws and left to fend for herself. She nearly starved to death before an aid agency found her and took her to hospital to have an operation to repair the fistula.

    And what made my heart break was that after the operation, while she was recovering her husband hear about what had happened and came to get her back!
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    I didn't see this message until I'd already quoted your other one. Whoops

    It is surprising how many people misinterpret it when I openly "admit" to being a feminist, and how many people don't understand that gender stereotypes affect just about everybody and work both ways :confused:

    I know, feminism shouldn't just be for the ladies. Chauvinism is most cartainly not restricted to men; I've met plenty of girls who actually believe that they don't deserve the same rights/opportunities as men
    Hee hee don't worry!

    Those kind of women I can't even get my head around. It's like really? You have such a poor opinion of yourself? I always wonder what kind of upbringing they must have have.
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    I think I watched a similar programme on the BBC about child marriage.

    I was literally in tears, there was this one girl of 15 who'd been forced to marry and had got pregnant and her body couldn't cope with it.

    She was from a rural area of India with no medical care and she was in labour for days and her baby died during it.

    She was left with a fistula due to the physical trauma of the labour and she was constantly leaking urine as a result. Because of this she was abandoned by her husband and inlaws and left to fend for herself. She nearly starved to death before an aid agency found her and took her to hospital to have an operation to repair the fistula.

    And what made my heart break was that after the operation, while she was recovering her husband hear about what had happened and came to get her back!
    That's horrific

    Now I'm thinking about that show "worst place to be..." and it was a midwife, and she watched as the other midwife literally pushed (as in, with her hands on the ouside of the belly) the baby out from this pregnant woman who wasn't ready to deliver because they needed to free up the beds. They didn't film that, thankfully, but they showed you all of the blood on the delivery table and floor.

    But yeah, there are plenty of examples of all kinds. And thinking about how it's still such a problem is so depressing.
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    Hee hee don't worry!

    Those kind of women I can't even get my head around. It's like really? You have such a poor opinion of yourself? I always wonder what kind of upbringing they must have have.
    There was this one girl who actually said both "oh, I'm just going to stay at home, that's what women are for, they're not meant to work" and "well yes chauvinism exists but so does feminism and it's just as bad!"

    :confused: whut? I couldn't get my head around it either. Most confusing Ethics class debate I've ever participated in.
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    There was this one girl who actually said both "oh, I'm just going to stay at home, that's what women are for, they're not meant to work" and "well yes chauvinism exists but so does feminism and it's just as bad!"

    :confused: whut? I couldn't get my head around it either. Most confusing Ethics class debate I've ever participated in.
    Those girls should have done A2 Politics, we learnt all about feminism then would have sorted out their weird ideas!

    Also, Chauvinism doesn't mean men viewing women as inferior, the word just means anyone viewing another group or type of people as inferior. The word was actually coined to describe a form of Nationalism.
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    That's horrific

    Now I'm thinking about that show "worst place to be..." and it was a midwife, and she watched as the other midwife literally pushed (as in, with her hands on the ouside of the belly) the baby out from this pregnant woman who wasn't ready to deliver because they needed to free up the beds. They didn't film that, thankfully, but they showed you all of the blood on the delivery table and floor.

    But yeah, there are plenty of examples of all kinds. And thinking about how it's still such a problem is so depressing.
    I know. I've never cried watching a documentary in life but I was literally inf loods watching it.

    Oh my god, do they even think about how much damage that could do?!
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    Those girls should have done A2 Politics, we learnt all about feminism then would have sorted out their weird ideas!

    Also, Chauvinism doesn't mean men viewing women as inferior, the word just means anyone viewing another group or type of people as inferior. The word was actually coined to describe a form of Nationalism.
    In Spain we don't have anything like that. Just obligatory ethics (mainly about sexism) and citizenship (mainly about homphobia) classes.

    Hmm I use "chauvinism" as the equivalent of the spanish term "machismo" which, as you might expect, is about men > women. So when I translated her words I just used chauvinism I know that the more accurate term would be "male chauvinism".
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    In Spain we don't have anything like that. Just obligatory ethics (mainly about sexism) and citizenship (mainly about homphobia) classes.

    Hmm I use "chauvinism" as the equivalent of the spanish term "machismo" which, as you might expect, is about men > women. So when I translated her words I just used chauvinism I know that the more accurate term would be "male chauvinism".
    Oh you poor thing. Politics A2 was awesome interesting that you have those. In the UK our similar lessons tend to be more about sex ed and bullying, drugs and alcohol and the like.

    I'll forgive you the language barrier then we use the word machismo in English but clearly the root word means something different. In the UK we would use it to describe an attitude of exaggerated masculinity.
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    (Original post by Historophilia)
    Oh you poor thing. Politics A2 was awesome interesting that you have those. In the UK our similar lessons tend to be more about sex ed and bullying, drugs and alcohol and the like.

    I'll forgive you the language barrier then we use the word machismo in English but clearly the root word means something different. In the UK we would use it to describe an attitude of exaggerated masculinity.
    I had one sex-ed slash drug abuse class, once, when I was in my final year of secondary school. It was like something out of Never Been Kissed, they called in a woman from outside the school and we practiced putting condoms on rainbow-coloured penises. Lol we did some work on bullying in Ethics too, which I found funny because they don't seem to have an actual word and use the english "bullying" :lol:

    I tihnk that's what the word machismo technically means in Spanish too, but it's used to almost exclusively in reference to male chauvinism.

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