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Bibles and Fables

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    I'm new here so don't hate.
    I believe religion is a beautiful thing and although I'm atheist, I think faith is wonderful and something I sadly do not have the mentality for.

    but then again, I think that let's say the Bible for example tells a great numerous stories. But the more I think about them. a lot are not wise words. It's common sense.

    "Treat others as you wish to be treated"...yeah...wise and revolutionary....or simply an age old piece of common sense?


    Sorry, moany thing over.
    Any other biblical/other religious stories that you think are purely common sense yet somehow pose "deep meaning" to religion?
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    (Original post by Bokurano)
    I'm new here so don't hate.
    I believe religion is a beautiful thing and although I'm atheist, I think faith is wonderful and something I sadly do not have the mentality for.

    but then again, I think that let's say the Bible for example tells a great numerous stories. But the more I think about them. a lot are not wise words. It's common sense.

    "Treat others as you wish to be treated"...yeah...wise and revolutionary....or simply an age old piece of common sense?


    Sorry, moany thing over.
    Any other biblical/other religious stories that you think are purely common sense yet somehow pose "deep meaning" to religion?
    As far as stories, its alright. You could maybe use some of them to teach kids morals.

    The problem is that most religious people take the bible way to seriously and live their life according to it. More often than not they pick and chose different parts to follow. These people are at the root of most of society's problems.
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    (Original post by Bokurano)
    I'm new here so don't hate.
    I believe religion is a beautiful thing and although I'm atheist, I think faith is wonderful and something I sadly do not have the mentality for.

    but then again, I think that let's say the Bible for example tells a great numerous stories. But the more I think about them. a lot are not wise words. It's common sense.

    "Treat others as you wish to be treated"...yeah...wise and revolutionary....or simply an age old piece of common sense?


    Sorry, moany thing over.
    Any other biblical/other religious stories that you think are purely common sense yet somehow pose "deep meaning" to religion?
    I don't believe in God but I enjoy the Bible a lot. I think its a terrific book full of history, cultures and belief. I also think that religion when done right can be a benefit to society. Look at the Salvation army the work the do is amazing.
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    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    I don't believe in God but I enjoy the Bible a lot. I think its a terrific book full of history, cultures and belief. I also think that religion when done right can be a benefit to society. Look at the Salvation army the work the do is amazing.
    Yep, ignore the centuries of war, generations of repressed people because the Salvation army are lovely smiley people.

    The bible is full of violence. God is portrayed as a capricious malevolent and vengeful being, not a nice person at all.

    If you don't believe God exists then surely you should have nothing but contempt for religion for enslaving mankind for millenniums.
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    (Original post by Banishingboredom)
    Yep, ignore the centuries of war, generations of repressed people because the Salvation army are lovely smiley people.

    The bible is full of violence. God is portrayed as a capricious malevolent and vengeful being, not a nice person at all.

    If you don't believe God exists then surely you should have nothing but contempt for religion for enslaving mankind for millenniums.
    How about the centuries of medical research and advancement, scientific advancement, social development, introduction to education etc .funny how that is always forgotten, What about the art and music that its inspired etc ?

    You need to look objectively at things, labelling an entire movement as bad due to war (which was common in our past society as it is now irrespective of religion for the most part, territories, resources etc) That salvation army do amazing work and I highlighted them for that, fair you cant judge all denominations by them for every salvation army there is a westboro baptist church but you can't deny that they exist either, I did say in my post "when religion is done right"

    The Bible is full of violence true, but its also full of wisdom, parables, stories to live by. You don't need to believe that God exists in order to enjoy the Bible. read the new testament. Understand context and why things are written the way they are. The god of the Bible is what the people who wrote it thought he was, nothing more, nothing less.
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    (Original post by Bokurano)
    I'm new here so don't hate.
    I believe religion is a beautiful thing and although I'm atheist, I think faith is wonderful and something I sadly do not have the mentality for.

    but then again, I think that let's say the Bible for example tells a great numerous stories. But the more I think about them. a lot are not wise words. It's common sense.

    "Treat others as you wish to be treated"...yeah...wise and revolutionary....or simply an age old piece of common sense?


    Sorry, moany thing over.
    Any other biblical/other religious stories that you think are purely common sense yet somehow pose "deep meaning" to religion?
    That teaching was not revolutionary at all. The ancient Egyptians wrote something along those lines in the Teachings of Ptah-Hotep, and Amenemipet. These ancient documents would have been accessible in the libraries at Thebes and Memphis. When the Hyksos took over Egypt they would have read these texts and brought the wisdom back to Palestine where they became part of the culture there. It is also possible that when Tutmosis came to Palestine, he introduced these teachings to the population. It is also possible that the Akkadians, Sumerians and Babylonians had similar wisdom teachings which were handed down and found their way into Biblical literature.

    As you see that teaching in the Bible, it would not be revolutionary, except an old teaching which became part of the literature.
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    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    How about the centuries of medical research and advancement, scientific advancement, social development, introduction to education etc .funny how that is always forgotten, What about the art and music that its inspired etc ?

    You need to look objectively at things, labelling an entire movement as bad due to war (which was common in our past society as it is now irrespective of religion for the most part, territories, resources etc) That salvation army do amazing work and I highlighted them for that, fair you cant judge all denominations by them for every salvation army there is a westboro baptist church but you can't deny that they exist either, I did say in my post "when religion is done right"

    The Bible is full of violence true, but its also full of wisdom, parables, stories to live by. You don't need to believe that God exists in order to enjoy the Bible. read the new testament. Understand context and why things are written the way they are. The god of the Bible is what the people who wrote it thought he was, nothing more, nothing less.
    The Bible was written expressly for the purpose of controling the masses through religio-political subversion; they were written by an elite priesthood. These texts comprise of ancient literary notices and wisdom teachings (i.e., mainly from Egypt) reconfigured along very divsive lines, but much of it is satire against foreign nations as well. It is the most divisive, racist, and xenophobic book in antiquity.
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    I've heard the Book of Proverbs criticised a fair bit.
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    (Original post by Banishingboredom)
    Yep, ignore the centuries of war, generations of repressed people because the Salvation army are lovely smiley people.

    The bible is full of violence. God is portrayed as a capricious malevolent and vengeful being, not a nice person at all.

    If you don't believe God exists then surely you should have nothing but contempt for religion for enslaving mankind for millenniums.

    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    How about the centuries of medical research and advancement, scientific advancement, social development, introduction to education etc .funny how that is always forgotten, What about the art and music that its inspired etc ?

    You need to look objectively at things, labelling an entire movement as bad due to war (which was common in our past society as it is now irrespective of religion for the most part, territories, resources etc) That salvation army do amazing work and I highlighted them for that, fair you cant judge all denominations by them for every salvation army there is a westboro baptist church but you can't deny that they exist either, I did say in my post "when religion is done right"

    The Bible is full of violence true, but its also full of wisdom, parables, stories to live by. You don't need to believe that God exists in order to enjoy the Bible. read the new testament. Understand context and why things are written the way they are. The god of the Bible is what the people who wrote it thought he was, nothing more, nothing less.
    @Thebigfudge85, the Banishingboredom is just full of hate and ignorance, ignore it.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    The Bible was written expressly for the purpose of controling the masses through religio-political subversion; they were written by an elite priesthood. These texts comprise of ancient literary notices and wisdom teachings (i.e., mainly from Egypt) reconfigured along very divsive lines, but much of it is satire against foreign nations as well. It is the most divisive, racist, and xenophobic book in antiquity.
    Where do you get all this from?
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    The Bible was written expressly for the purpose of controling the masses through religio-political subversion; they were written by an elite priesthood. These texts comprise of ancient literary notices and wisdom teachings (i.e., mainly from Egypt) reconfigured along very divsive lines, but much of it is satire against foreign nations as well. It is the most divisive, racist, and xenophobic book in antiquity.
    The Bible wasn't written for any purpose. its a collection of prose, poetry, fact, fiction, belief, instruction, allegory, parables. that came about through time from numerous generations spanning thousands of years. There isn't one history of it, there isn't one reason for it. its an organic thing that grew not a book to oppress the populace.

    For instance the New testament is a collection of accounts and letters compiled a few centuries after they were available. The message of which is drastically different from the old testament.

    there is both good and bad in the Bible. I have never said that there wasn't nor do I claim that it is the moral high ground. I just think its a great book that is well worth a read in this day and age, It tells you where you come from, what our close ancestors believed, There are some fantastic lessons buried within it. some fantastic warnings etc
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    (Original post by Entrepreneur123)
    Where do you get all this from?
    I study a broad range of subjects. Look at it this way: by the time the Bible was written in the 8th centur BC, Egypt, Sumer, Babylon and Akkad had grown really old. The wisdom of these ancient civilisations became the legends the Judean priests put in their literature, although they configured them to their own time as well. The story of Joseph and Moses in Egypt was taken from a variety of middle-to-late Egyptian folktales involving Osiris, Isis and Horus. The earlier stories of Abraham were not written earlier, but later when the Israelites found themselves exiled in Babylon. There, at Babylon, they took, for example, the ancient stories of Anu and Enlil and wrote about the tower of Babel and a Creation story. The stories were then woven with their own traditional stories about Egypt. Voila! The books of Moses were born.
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    (Original post by blueray)
    @Thebigfudge85, the Banishingboredom is just full of hate and ignorance, ignore it.
    Ignorance? Please explain. And not hate, just resentment.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)


    I study a broad range of subjects. Look at it this way: by the time the Bible was written in the 8th centur BC, Egypt, Sumer, Babylon and Akkad had grown really old. The wisdom of these ancient civilisations became the legends the Judean priests put in their literature, although they configured them to their own time as well. The story of Joseph and Moses in Egypt was taken from a variety of middle-to-late Egyptian folktales involving Osiris, Isis and Horus. The earlier stories of Abraham were not written earlier, but later when the Israelites found themselves exiled in Babylon. There, at Babylon, they took, for example, the ancient stories of Anu and Enlil and wrote about the tower of Babel and a Creation story. The stories were then woven with their own traditional stories about Egypt. Voila! The books of Moses were born.
    The story of Moses is in exodus. 1 book out of 66. Even if you want to argue that books accredited to Moses, the pentateuch that is 5 out of 66. not the entire Bible
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    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    The Bible wasn't written for any purpose. its a collection of prose, poetry, fact, fiction, belief, instruction, allegory, parables. that came about through time from numerous generations spanning thousands of years. There isn't one history of it, there isn't one reason for it. its an organic thing that grew not a book to oppress the populace.

    For instance the New testament is a collection of accounts and letters compiled a few centuries after they were available. The message of which is drastically different from the old testament.

    there is both good and bad in the Bible. I have never said that there wasn't nor do I claim that it is the moral high ground. I just think its a great book that is well worth a read in this day and age, It tells you where you come from, what our close ancestors believed, There are some fantastic lessons buried within it. some fantastic warnings etc
    The earliest strands of the Books of Moses was written against Egyptian culture; it is an Egyptian satire. Later strands involved a sacred history of Israel. Obviously, they came from the Mesopotamia, because at the time the compilers of the texts were exiled in Babylon, and thus they took upon writing a sacred history: they came out of Egypt but their birth was in the Mesopotamia. This was achieved by the sponsor of the Persian priesthood. The traditional folktales of Egypt were blended with those created in Babylon.

    I do not think that it took thousands of years, more like a couple of hundred years from the 8th and 6th century BC onwards. Texts were continually written as a synthesis of Jewish and Pagan literature, which provided much material for the advent of Gnosticism. Paul's authentic letters were an attempt to reconcile Jewish Gnosticism with Rome, untill they were purged of their Gnostic content by proto-orthodox Christians writing under the name of Paul. Then came the Gospels, which were written as a folktale/ satire against the Jews by Roman aristocrats, and, later edited, by Christians using the works of Josephus, forming them into an historical narrative. The Christian literature is so complex that it is not easy to see how they came to be.
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    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    The story of Moses is in exodus. 1 book out of 66. Even if you want to argue that books accredited to Moses, the pentateuch that is 5 out of 66. not the entire Bible
    My point was that the Biblical Exodus is Egyptian in origin. It was taken from numerous incidents in Egyptian history involving the expulsion of the Hyksos, the exodus of the lepers under Amenophis, and the Exodus of Akhenaten and his people into the Sinai. These stories would have circulated amongst the trade routes from Egypt to the Levant, including from military campaigns done by the Egyptians into Palestine. That's how stories like this usually develop into folktales in other nations. Take the story of Moses: Moses was born in a basket, an obvious allusion to Horus having been born in the bulrushes at Chemmis. The notion that it came from Sargon of Akkad may not entirely be true, since Moses later went into Midian, and this is the Egyptian Amenta (the land of the blind) where Osiris was sent. Moses (who is Horus/Osiris) married the priestess of Heliopolis. But Moses is anti-Egyptian, and Thurmuthis (Isis), is the new mother, daughter of Pharaoh. The story is therefore a satire against Egyptian culture.

    Take the story of Joseph. He is placed in a coffin in Egypt. He can interpret dreams. He is a vizier to the Pharaoh. He was able to organise the grain. Joseph is therefore another satire against Egypt. When the grain became abundant in Egypt the people praised Osiris, for he was the god of the grain and was called 'the coffined One'. The meaning of Joseph's name is essential to this: Zaphenathpanea, Djeduenafipankh. This links Joseph with Osiris. The link was identified by numerous writers of antiquity including Melito of Sardis and even Tertullian.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    My point was that the Biblical Exodus is Egyptian in origin. It was taken from numerous incidents in Egyptian history involving the expulsion of the Hyksos, the exodus of the lepers under Amenophis, and the Exodus of Akhenaten and his people into the Sinai. These stories would have circulated amongst the trade routes from Egypt to the Levant, including from military campaigns done by the Egyptians into Palestine. That's how stories like this usually develop into folktales in other nations.
    yes, the Bible is the collection stories and beliefs, no one is disputing that, the thing I am disputing is that the Bible was written at one time to oppress the masses, that was your claim before, Not an organic collection of beliefs as you have stated yourself in your last two posts
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    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    How about the centuries of medical research and advancement, scientific advancement, social development, introduction to education etc .funny how that is always forgotten, What about the art and music that its inspired etc ?

    You need to look objectively at things, labelling an entire movement as bad due to war (which was common in our past society as it is now irrespective of religion for the most part, territories, resources etc) That salvation army do amazing work and I highlighted them for that, fair you cant judge all denominations by them for every salvation army there is a westboro baptist church but you can't deny that they exist either, I did say in my post "when religion is done right"

    The Bible is full of violence true, but its also full of wisdom, parables, stories to live by. You don't need to believe that God exists in order to enjoy the Bible. read the new testament. Understand context and why things are written the way they are. The god of the Bible is what the people who wrote it thought he was, nothing more, nothing less.
    I'm not saying everything religion has done has been bad. But in the past few years it's softened up a lot and put on a much friendlier face. However Christianity was probably the best thing to happen to Africa.

    But I suggest you read A History of Christianity before you make the claims you've mentioned in the first paragraph. Essentially all medical, scientific and education was controlled and in my opinion repressed by the church until the enlightenment and even beyond. If you just take the simple case of evolution, religious schools still refuse to teach that it is true because it contradicts their holy books.

    Arguably your point that war would have happened anyway is true, but religion has provided a bedrock for cultural divides and resentment. I've just been reading Jerusalem and the amount of bloodshed based on religion grounds is absolutely shocking. The crusades are the main example, but there have been plenty of other genocides on the basis of religion.

    Again regarding art and music and architecture etc. all these required hundreds of thousands of man hours and were created out of devotion to a God they were told unequivocally exists. If this turns out not to be the case then this talent was surely wasted and could have been put to better use to better humanity.

    I disagree with your argument about morality and the bible. Considering most believers disagree with most of the rules anyway it just shows it doesn't dictate your moral code. Surely you'd know not to kill or steal and to be nice to people without a book telling you so. Mankind would have destroyed itself a long time before the bible was written otherwise.
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    (Original post by Banishingboredom)
    I'm not saying everything religion has done has been bad. But in the past few years it's softened up a lot and put on a much friendlier face. However Christianity was probably the best thing to happen to Africa.

    But I suggest you read A History of Christianity before you make the claims you've mentioned in the first paragraph. Essentially all medical, scientific and education was controlled and in my opinion repressed by the church until the enlightenment and even beyond. If you just take the simple case of evolution, religious schools still refuse to teach that it is true because it contradicts their holy books.

    Arguably your point that war would have happened anyway is true, but religion has provided a bedrock for cultural divides and resentment. I've just been reading Jerusalem and the amount of bloodshed based on religion grounds is absolutely shocking. The crusades are the main example, but there have been plenty of other genocides on the basis of religion.

    Again regarding art and music and architecture etc. all these required hundreds of thousands of man hours and were created out of devotion to a God they were told unequivocally exists. If this turns out not to be the case then this talent was surely wasted and could have been put to better use to better humanity.

    I disagree with your argument about morality and the bible. Considering most believers disagree with most of the rules anyway it just shows it doesn't dictate your moral code. Surely you'd know not to kill or steal and to be nice to people without a book telling you so. Mankind would have destroyed itself a long time before the bible was written otherwise.
    I have actually read that book, It was quite a tome but I enjoyed it a lot, In essence I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post. Science has been stiffled by religion however that doesnt change the fact that the first hospitals in the west were established by religion, same with Charity and social aid, A lot has been done mathematically by religious people in a religious culture ( newton for one) there. There is no black and white

    I dont think that you can only gain morals through the Bible, i don't think you need the Bible to be moral, I just feel that there are a few very good moral examples, Self sacrifice for the good of man in the case of Jesus , sticking to your guns and fighting for yourself in the case of Moses. Bravery for a cause in the case of Daniel. Fighting for what you believe even if the odds are greater than you could handle ( David and Goliath) etc.

    hundreds of thousands of paid man hours, of people earning a wage and jobs you could argue .... which are always good
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    (Original post by Thebigfudge85)
    yes, the Bible is the collection stories and beliefs, no one is disputing that, the thing I am disputing is that the Bible was written at one time to oppress the masses, that was your claim before, Not an organic collection of beliefs as you have stated yourself in your last two posts
    The priests were the compilers of religious material in the ancient world. Ever sicne ancient times, the priests of every nation wanted complete control over all affairs of the state, including the destiny of the people. In Israel the people eventually wanted a king, as other nations had a king, but the priests wanted to maintain control. The compilation of such literature was a remakable pull on the pyschology of the people. Thus a lot of the Biblical literature must have been written along similar lines, but the priests wrote the literature including the fables of the kings David, Solomon et al. All these were legendary folktales. David and Solomon were written as satires against kingship, to show how irresponsible they can be with their power. After David and Solomon, Israel was ruled by Judges, priests who were also prophets. The prophets became important messengers of God, and the kings fell into apostacy colluding with the gods of other nations (as related in 2 Kings). This is yet more satire against Kingship. All this was done, I feel, in order to control the masses, to steer public opinion.

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