BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????
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BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Can someone please explain to me the rationale of only giving BPTC students 1 Re-Sit opportunity (with v. limited exceptions) when BVC students had 2 Re-Sit opportunities?
In other jurisdictions their is no limit on the number of attempts at the bar and some people have passed on their 14th attempt, etc.
Even some surgeons exams give their students 5 attempts.
Surely this limitation favours the young and full-time students, as they are much more likely to have very little else to do in life (e.g. work and/or family, etc) other than concentrate on the bar?
How will this help to increase diversity at the bar? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????How would giving unlimited re-sits increase diversity at the Bar?
Are lesser represented groups not as good at passing BPTC exams than others?
The BPTC in England and Wales is a lot easier to pass than exams in other jurisdictions, e.g. the New York Bar which has quite a high failure rate. What they really should be doing is either making it harder to pass so as to cut the wheat from the chaff, or making it harder to get on in the first place.Last edited by Wildman; 17-07-2012 at 13:42. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????"Are lesser represented groups not as good at passing BPTC exams than others?"
It is a well known fact that students who work and/or have family commitments, etc often choose to do the BPTC part-time. And the first attempt pass rates for part-time students are lower than for full-time students at many (if not at all?) providers.Last edited by tammy2012; 17-07-2012 at 13:55. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????If that is the case, I would say that the teaching and/or assessment for part time students needs to be looked at rather than the number of resits allowed.(Original post by tammy2012)
"Are lesser represented groups not as good at passing BPTC exams than others?"
It is a well known fact that students who work and/or have family commitments, etc often choose to do the BPTC part-time. And the first attempt pass rates for part-time students are lower than for full-time students at many (if not at all?) providers. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Can you please explain why all of your posts about the BPTC and the Bar are so negative? Do you genuinely want advice about any of this or are you just coming on here to complain for the sake of it?
The course is not in fact that difficult to pass, especially since it is possible to resit individual papers; you can see from the analysis of the last year of the BVC that the fail rate (post resits) due to 'withdrawals, deferrals and referrals" was 13% (http://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/...ts_2009.10.pdf), from the anecdotal evidence of what my friends have got this year on the BPTC (pre-resits), the pass rate, if different at all, is in fact better than it was last year. I am also aware of a number of students who dropped out of the course throughout the year who will contribute to that 13% fail rate.
If there are genuine mitigating reasons an unlimited number of 'first-sit' retakes are allowed, subject to the requirement that the course must be completed within two years (three for part time) which means in practice a maximum of 4 'first-sit' attempts are possible. This year an entire class was offered a first-sit retake on the basis that there were some noisy children outside of the window of their assessment room, so you can see that the providers are actually quite willing to find mitigating circumstances which are far from limited.
If you have no mitigating circumstances and you are unable to pass the course on two attempts then the reality is that you are probably not cut out for life at the Bar, or at the very least that you are unlikely to obtain pupillage. Allowing people to retake the course 14 times at a cost of £16,000 a go is hardly promoting diversity since it would only be open to people with a lot of money to throw away.
The more important question is why people who end up failing the course were allowed to waste their money in the first place, not whether we should permit them to waste it all over again; I would have thought the latter was a no-brainer. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Since the BSB have only published the data for the full-time course I'd be interested to know where you got your data on part-time students' pass rates from?(Original post by tammy2012)
"Are lesser represented groups not as good at passing BPTC exams than others?"
It is a well known fact that students who work and/or have family commitments, etc often choose to do the BPTC part-time. And the first attempt pass rates for part-time students are lower than for full-time students at many (if not at all?) providers. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Prospective BPTC students need to hear both sides of the story, as the majority of them (66%+) will never get pupillage. Most of them are wasting money on a fantasy that will never become reality! That fantasy is fueled by the rosy picture painted by several people on this site and others i.e. give it a go, you've got a chance, etc.
"Allowing people to retake the course 14 times at a cost of £16,000 a go is hardly promoting diversity since it would only be open to people with a lot of money to throw away."
I totally agree. Why should a BPTC student who e.g. has passed 10 out of 12 exams, be forced to pay £16,000 to do the course again from the start, if she fails more than twice? Which is the current system, should she wish to continue at the bar. Why isn't she allowed to just retake the failed exams until she passes at the same re-sit rate as for the first re-sit?
"If you have no mitigating circumstances and you are unable to pass the course on two attempts then the reality is that you are probably not cut out for life at the Bar, or at the very least that you are unlikely to obtain pupillage."
Yet all BVC students had 3 attempts?
Most people who fail the bar only do so because they haven't put the work in and this could be for a variety of reasons e.g. work/family etc. That doesn't mean that they are not cut out for life at the bar e.g. women with young children, etc. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I agree that people do need to hear that, but I don't think you'll find anyone painting a rosy picture of the process. People can be supportive of each other while remaining realistic.(Original post by tammy2012)
Prospective BPTC students need to hear both sides of the story, as the majority of them (66%+) will never get pupillage. Most of them are wasting money on a fantasy that will never become reality! That fantasy is fueled by the rosy picture painted by several people on this site and others i.e. give it a go, you've got a chance, etc.
I think by definition inability to put the work in, for whatever reason, means that you are not cut out for life at the Bar. There are people who manage to juggle jobs, childcare and pro bono work and still pass the course. Likewise there are women at the Bar with young children. The point is that despite everything else they have to do, they still have to put the work in to succeed. Anyone who manages to do all that is worthy of serious respect; what it doesn't do is entitle them to lower their standards.(Original post by tammy2012)
Most people who fail the bar only do so because they haven't put the work in and this could be for a variety of reasons e.g. work/family etc. That doesn't mean that they are not cut out for life at the bar e.g. women with young children, etc.
If people are struggling to pass the Bar course they are only going to struggle even more during practice, it's unfair on them, and belittling to the achievements of the many incredible working mothers at the Bar to suggest that they need or should get special treatment. Once the Bar is more friendly to those with family commitments (which may be an area that it is worth you campaigning to change) then the BPTC can change to reflect that, as it is it needs to prepare people for practice; unlimited resits would not achieve that aim.Last edited by Bar None; 17-07-2012 at 15:19. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????More than one resit opportunity seemed to work just fine on the BVC (for many years) and it currently works fine in other jurisdictions and in other professions.
The current BPTC is just systematically favouring young, full-time students with no other commitments other than their bar studies. Which in my opinion is reducing diversity at the bar.
How many part-time pupillages do you see advertised?
Q: If you really want the brightest and the best why not make the entry requirements for the BPTC a first class degree only and allow no re-sit opportunities on the course at all.
A: This would seriously reduce diversity at the bar and the institutions wouldn't be able to make as much money as they do now, etc.
BTW - nobody has really answered my initial question? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Are you seriously proposing that part time pupillages are offered? There is wishful thinking then there is a lack of awareness of the commercial realities.(Original post by tammy2012)
More than one resit opportunity seemed to work just fine on the BVC (for many years) and it currently works fine in other jurisdictions and in other professions.
The current BPTC is just systematically favouring young, full-time students with no other commitments other than their bar studies. Which in my opinion is reducing diversity at the bar.
How many part-time pupillages do you see advertised?
Q: If you really want the brightest and the best why not make the entry requirements for the BPTC a first class degree only and allow no re-sit opportunities on the course at all.
A: This would seriously reduce diversity at the bar and the institutions wouldn't be able to make as much money as they do now, etc.
BTW - nobody has really answered my initial question?
The BVC didn't work fine though did it? It churned out thousands with no hope of pupillage. Not that his has changed a great deal, but it is a step in the right direction.
I know someone who is doing the BPTC part time by the way - she is doing just fine. I honetly think that the BPTC is piss easy to pass. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????According to Richard de Friend (Director, College of Law (Bloomsbury)) it fits in with the new 'tough love' approach which has been adopted for the BPTC. The Wood Review found the following problems with the BVC:
While there are few barristers who would consider it necessary to have a first class degree to be competent to practice, there are plenty who were concerned with the quality of those completing the course; eliminating multiple resits was one way to make the qualification more valued."the recruitment of too many students (numbers had grown by 30% between 2003/4 and 2007/8); for too few pupillages (a 5% reduction over the same period); students who were unaware of the risks they were running when they signed up for an extremely expensive course; content that was insufficiently challenging, realistic and specialised to meet the needs of modern practice; teaching standards that were too low; and a pass level which was lower than any professionally recognisable threshold of competence, even for pupillage.
...According to Wood, though, there remained … “a gulf of misunderstanding….. between the practising Bar and the BVC. The impression persists among many practitioners that the BVC is flawed in most or all of the ways described (above)”
Faced with all this Wood’s approach was robust, businesslike and fair, and its outcome could best be characterised as “tough love”."
In any event I really don't think there can be that many people who fail after two attempts who would succeed after three. I know different universities have different practices but at mine we weren't allowed any resits for exams which counted towards your final result, I certainly don't know of any which allow unlimited resits. Why should the BPTC be any different?
I hope that answers your initial question.
Source: http://www.barristermagazine.com/arc.../defriend.htmlLast edited by Bar None; 17-07-2012 at 17:24. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????"Are you seriously proposing that part time pupillages are offered? There is wishful thinking then there is a lack of awareness of the commercial realities."
If GPs can work PT I don't see why the bar shouldn't modernise, so yes I am being serious about this.
"The BVC didn't work fine though did it? It churned out thousands with no hope of pupillage. Not that his has changed a great deal, but it is a step in the right direction."
The BPTC has not resolved any of the serious issues e.g. the pupillage shortage. Treating students unfairly is not a step in the right direction in my eyes! Recently the BSB has used a process of upwards and downwards scaling to grade the unfair centrally set BPTC exams. Is this some sort of joke! All this has really meant is that the BSB can give any student any grade that it wants to. Chambers should take note that several students have had their grades artificially bumped up and they are therefore not a true reflection of their knowledge in the subjects 'tested'.
"I know someone who is doing the BPTC part time by the way - she is doing just fine."
I am genuinely very happy for her!
"I honetly think that the BPTC is piss easy to pass."
If what you say is true - it's not really going to be churning out pupillage ready grads, now is it? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????"teaching standards that were too low"
Many of the same teachers are now teaching the BPTC and the teaching standard is still very very low, possibly even lower than on the BVC as they are now forced into implementing unfair tactics by the BSB (despite one or two exceptional gems).
"eliminating multiple resits was one way to make the qualification more valued."
Oh dear! Are you saying that the BVC is less valuable than the BPTC?
That could be problematic for any BVC grads still looking for pupillage? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????(Original post by tammy2012)
BTW - nobody has really answered my initial question?And you are yet to answer that question, which has been asked in threads other than this one. If you think you can gloss over that question and people will forget that it has been asked then you are mistaken. The undiluted negativity with which you have been attacking the BPTC in your posts sticks out like a sore thumb.(Original post by Bar None)
Can you please explain why all of your posts about the BPTC and the Bar are so negative? Do you genuinely want advice about any of this or are you just coming on here to complain for the sake of it? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????And have you formed these views after having taking the course yourself?(Original post by tammy2012)
Unfortunately, I think that there are several problems with the new BPTC and I think that it is very important that prospective BPTC students are warned about them, as the course is so expensive. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I'll take that as a 'no', then.(Original post by tammy2012)
Stick to the topic Crazy Jamie! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????There are many problems with the BPTC
- expense
- elitist
- inaccessible to people of lesser means
- lots of no hopers let on
- awful teaching and awful teachers
- students getting grades bumped up through being mates with tutors
- lack of respect for the qualification
- too many of the scholarships are paid to people who are already rich
- when tackled on diversity the Bar usually comes up with some nonsense like 'but those [insert minority] people just don't apply. nothing we can do etc.
The lack of unlimited resits is definitely not a problem. You could have chosen numerous things to pick on but instead you chose one of the few things that has actually been improved since the advent of the BPTC.
