BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I know quite a few thick people who managed to graduate with a first, too. And don't get me started on some of the morons who I know who went to Oxford and Cambridge.(Original post by tammy2012)
I know lots of really intelligent people who have got a 2:2 at uni for one reason or another and I also know lots of really thick people who have got a 2:1.
I would never not give someone a job just because they have a 2:2. You have to take a look at the individual.
The classification really means very little to me.
The nottingham type example given above occurs at lots of unis in some format or another.
The point is that degree classification is a blunt and often irrelevant measure of competence. But it is just about the only semi-reliable measure that employers have for fresh graduates. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????There are not high numbers of pupillages at the moment. The number of pupillages in England and Wales is roughly half of what it was 10 or so years ago - a consequence of chambers now having to pay pupils whereas previously you did it for free.(Original post by Vinchenko)
Firstly: the problem is too many BPTC grads not too few pupillages! Historically, there are high numbers of barristers at the moment and consequently high numbers of pupillages (though due to savage legal aid cuts there have been recent reductions in numbers). It's about the future of the profession in terms of barrister numbers, not the number of pupillages.
Secondly: No. It doesn't. Hence why about 75% of them don't get pupillage. Some will be forced out on numbers of pupillages available, but when lots of BPTC providers will accept people with 2ii in their undergrad degrees and you look at the tiny number of accepted pupils who attained that, it's not that surprising. (And no, a 2ii, even from Oxbridge, is not an amazing achievement. In my experience, people who are clever enough to get in fairly have the ability to apply themselves enough to get a 2i.)
The problem probably wont correct until the had-it-all baby boomer generation finally go off to their retirement homes. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????That's a bit of an oversimplification- the reduction in the number of pupillages also has a great deal to do with the reduction of work available at the bar. Chambers need to tailor the number of tenants they have to the amount of work available- this has been shrinking, and so have the number of pupillages.(Original post by Wildman)
There are not high numbers of pupillages at the moment. The number of pupillages in England and Wales is roughly half of what it was 10 or so years ago - a consequence of chambers now having to pay pupils whereas previously you did it for free. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I completely agree with this!(Original post by BVC-er)
As a former BVC student, I would also endorse most of the above list.
One point not raised in relation to the re-sit aspect is the manner in which the exams are scheduled for part-time students. At City Law School, part-time students had to sit the assessments according to the schedule for the full time students. In effect, and assuming (which was not always the case) the student was on the part time course because of work or home responsibilities, it meant that the student had to undertake the assessments in half the time allocated to the full time students.
This was overtly prejudicial to the part time students and CLS made no pretence that they did not give a toss. As a consequence, part time students would deliberately fail exams, simply by not showing up or by not submitting hand-in assessments, and take them at a later date as re-sits. Having only two sittings rather than three must have a bearing on this strategy (one, in essence, of how to deal with the self-serving incompetence of the provider; by a long chalk, the only difficult aspect of the BVC). Limiting attempts to two sittings only is, in this context, be prejudicial to the part-time students.
Why should PT students be forced into following a FT timetable?
It doesn't make any sense whatsoever! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I often get the feeling that many (if not most) BPTC tutors would not be able to pass the new BPTC (certainly not at their first attempt), even if they had to take it, in order to keep their jobs!
Last edited by tammy2012; 18-07-2012 at 13:26. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????(Original post by Wildman)
I know quite a few thick people who managed to graduate with a first, too. And don't get me started on some of the morons who I know who went to Oxford and Cambridge.
The point is that degree classification is a blunt and often irrelevant measure of competence. But it is just about the only semi-reliable measure that employers have for fresh graduates.
I don't think that it is even a semi-reliable measure any more. In fact I think it's totally unreliable, especially when you take into account the variety of different 'micky mouse' degree subjects on offer these days, different universities (if you can call them that), and the complete lack of any real consistency in the marking and grading process between institutions. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????That is one of the most ridiculous things you have said so far. How many BPTC tutors have you actually met? Until you answer the question about whether you have actually undertaken the BPTC there is really no way of assessing your 'feelings'.(Original post by tammy2012)
I often get the feeling that many (if not most) BPTC tutors would not be able to pass the new BPTC (certainly not at their first attempt), even if they had to take it, in order to keep their jobs!
I have met plenty of tutors, all of whom were perfectly competent and many of whom I have learnt a great deal from this year. Aside from the fact that civil tutors might not be able to pass the criminal modules and vice versa (on the basis that many of them haven't practiced or studied in that area for many years) without doing some kind of revision first, the course is really not that difficult and I would think that most tutors, if not all, would have no trouble in passing it. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Because otherwise the FT students could tell the PT students what was on the test...(Original post by tammy2012)
I completely agree with this!
Why should PT students be forced into following a FT timetable?
It doesn't make any sense whatsoever! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I'm pretty sure almost all of my BPTC tutors would have slain the exams. The quality of advocacy and depth of knowledge (to say nothing of overwhelming familiarity with the course and exams) was excellent. A few weren't as good, I'll admit that, but overall they were great.(Original post by Bar None)
That is one of the most ridiculous things you have said so far. How many BPTC tutors have you actually met? Until you answer the question about whether you have actually undertaken the BPTC there is really no way of assessing your 'feelings'.
I have met plenty of tutors, all of whom were perfectly competent and many of whom I have learnt a great deal from this year. Aside from the fact that civil tutors might not be able to pass the criminal modules and vice versa (on the basis that many of them haven't practiced or studied in that area for many years) without doing some kind of revision first, the course is really not that difficult and I would think that most tutors, if not all, would have no trouble in passing it.
From the tone of her posts Tammy sounds like she somehow failed the course and is full of resentment.Last edited by Shearn; 18-07-2012 at 14:24. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????(Original post by Bar None)
Because otherwise the FT students could tell the PT students what was on the test...
Not if it was a different/seperate test only for the PT students. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????(Original post by Bar None)
That is one of the most ridiculous things you have said so far. How many BPTC tutors have you actually met? Until you answer the question about whether you have actually undertaken the BPTC there is really no way of assessing your 'feelings'.
I have met plenty of tutors, all of whom were perfectly competent and many of whom I have learnt a great deal from this year. Aside from the fact that civil tutors might not be able to pass the criminal modules and vice versa (on the basis that many of them haven't practiced or studied in that area for many years) without doing some kind of revision first, the course is really not that difficult and I would think that most tutors, if not all, would have no trouble in passing it.
Think about it! BPTC tutors are usually BVC graduates or LPC graduates and both courses were/are considerably easier to pass than the BPTC.
Therefore it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a tutor could pass the BVC or LPC and be able to teach on the BPTC, but not actually be able to pass the BPTC. -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????A serious question:
On average, do the brightest and the best barristers / solicitors ever leave their busy legal practice in order to teach on the BPTC or do only the sub-standard ones who can't make a decent living in 'the real world' do that? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????It's not as simplistic to analyse as many here seem to think, though. Firstly, compared to e.g. 50yrs ago, there are still high numbers of pupillages now. (or at least pupillages completed with a view to tenancy rather than returning to practice in the 'colonies', as many did, e.g Gandhi) Secondly, the peak around then was probably due to unparalleled optimism at the financial climate and the seemingly never-ending city boom that was happening pre-dotcom crash. Recently, of course, a combination of a negative financial climate and savage cuts to publicly funded work have forced a decline in pupillage - e.g. 9-12 Bell Yard (predominantly criminal set) used to take about 6 pupils even 5 years ago; it's now *up to* 2.(Original post by Wildman)
There are not high numbers of pupillages at the moment. The number of pupillages in England and Wales is roughly half of what it was 10 or so years ago - a consequence of chambers now having to pay pupils whereas previously you did it for free.
The problem probably wont correct until the had-it-all baby boomer generation finally go off to their retirement homes.
Secondly, the decline in numbers is indeed because most people have to be paid a minimum wage - this is positive for increasing equal access to the bar, and it also means that the fight for tenancy is less numerically difficult than in previous years since chambers tend to only take on the best pupils, since they have to pay them and would like a return on their investment! I don't know if there are actually any figures for numbers of tenancies offered in years, but I would bet it has stayed more constant than the number of pupillages post-introduction of minimum wage.
The bar is undoubtedly going through a tough time at the moment, but my original point was it was ridiculous to say, effectively, that the reason behind the BPTC's terrible grad prospect rates is predominantly a lack of pupillages rather than too many people of not high enough calibre taking an expensive course that it is in the provider's interests to attract as many people to as possible. It's definitely both - just much more the latter than the former as far as I can tell! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????I don't think it's a good measure, since, perhaps especially at Cambridge, exams can depend as much on writing technique and structure as content and learning. On the other hand, perhaps that means they are a better test of advocacy skills and thus more suitable for assessing potential barristers than candidates for other careers!(Original post by jjarvis)
The ability to resit two or three times will accord closely with the opportunities available for under-prepared junior tenants to take a mulligan when they screw the first attempt up.
What's your experience, Vichenko? Your signature makes it look as though you just finished 1A at Cambridge, and, with respect, that's fairly limited experience of what's involved in taking a 2:i. While marks are important, they're not an ironclad index of legal acumen. I know people with (Cambridge) 2:is whose legal analysis is often pretty crap, and people who took 2:iis (though not many such people) who are actually pretty good but don't handle exams well. It's a shame, because degree classes are used to give a rough-and-ready idea of quality and they aren't necessarily ideally suited for the job.
On the other hand, I can't think of anyone over the vast range of people I know who are studying/have studied law at Cambridge who is a good lawyer, good at expressing ideas, and who works well under pressure who's got anything other than a 2ii, though I'm sure there are some. However, given that the vast majority of people on the BPTC with a 2ii have no realistic prospect of pupillage whatsoever, perhaps it might be fairer to all to state 2i minimum or a higher degree? Then it does give a route out for those who did less well in their undergrad (obviously with exceptions for illness etc). I have indeed just finished part 1A - obviously this year has been quite a learning curve in what's required for different grades, and I'm sure my appreciation of that will continue to change, however, I feel I know enough now to have at least a relatively informed opinion. It's not like I've been put in charge of dictating legal training policy or anything! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????(Original post by tammy2012)
Think about it! BPTC tutors are usually BVC graduates or LPC graduates and both courses were/are considerably easier to pass than the BPTC.
Therefore it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a tutor could pass the BVC or LPC and be able to teach on the BPTC, but not actually be able to pass the BPTC.Well, as if any more confirmation was needed, these two posts have just absolutely obliterated any lingering credibility that tammy may have commanded on these forums.(Original post by tammy2012)
A serious question:
On average, do the brightest and the best barristers / solicitors ever leave their busy legal practice in order to teach on the BPTC or do only the sub-standard ones who can't make a decent living in 'the real world' do that? -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????(Original post by Wildman)
I'd say with BPTC tutors it's pot luck whether you get a good one. Plenty of great tutors, lots of poor ones who don't give a damn
"lots of poor ones who don't give a damn"
I would definitely agree with that! -
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Re: BPTC 2012 1 Re-Sit rationale????Prospective BPTC students please see: "WARNING: College of Law BPTC Course problem" on this site for an interesting take on the BPTC.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=1890699Last edited by tammy2012; 18-07-2012 at 21:07.
