[GR3YFOXXX]

How can anyone claim that this organisation has a place in contemporary society?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18829447

[Bill_Gates]

religious fanatics!

[Snagprophet]

(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
How can anyone claim that this organisation has a place in contemporary society?

Not in my country.

[Steevee]

Religion

[camaieu]

Just pointing out - the Orange Order didn't march, a band from a loyalist estate did. Whilst there are faults within the Orange Order, the overwhelming majority just want to march peacefully, without antagonism. As a unionist, the behaviour of the Shankill marchers is deplorable, and I can assure you that the vast vast majority of unionists would condemn it as well.

However, bigotry works both ways. Do you think it's fair that Orange Halls are subject to arson attacks on a regular basis? What happened in the Ardoyne was dreadful - but if Republicans didn't want to see it, why did some of them not just stay inside, rather than coming out and deliberately causing trouble?

That said, I know that these rioters do not represent nationalists, and I know that many would say that they taint and warp the whole notion of nationalism entirely.

[navarre]

And who said religious stupidity was dead (in the UK)?

[GR3YFOXXX]

(Original post by Catherine.)
Just pointing out - the Orange Order didn't march, a band from a loyalist estate did. Whilst there are faults within the Orange Order, the overwhelming majority just want to march peacefully, without antagonism. As a unionist, the behaviour of the Shankill marchers is deplorable, and I can assure you that the vast vast majority of unionists would condemn it as well.

However, bigotry works both ways. Do you think it's fair that Orange Halls are subject to arson attacks on a regular basis? What happened in the Ardoyne was dreadful - but if Republicans didn't want to see it, why did some of them not just stay inside, rather than coming out and deliberately causing trouble?

That said, I know that these rioters do not represent nationalists, and I know that many would say that they taint and warp the whole notion of nationalism entirely.

Fully sashed Orange men actually attacked the guy recording the video after the band did. I don't know how you can deflect a fully valid argument about a bigoted organisation by mentioning "ohh but there a reprehensible republican elements too". I fully accept that bigotry exists on both sides of the community and that arson is never acceptable, but I do support the rights of the GARC to hold a counter demonstration. The 12th of July is a sectarian pogrom every year, could you imagine if Republicans and the AOH marched down the Shankil wearing Easter Lillies and singing sectarian songs. I couldn’t imagine it happening let alone being as peaceful and restrained as the vast majority of nationalists are during such an inflammatory time of the year.

BTW I'm not a hardlined republican simply an advocate for a parity of respect. I'm an atheist trained in British and Irish Law and I'm an accountant working within the British tax regime.

[camaieu]

(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
Fully sashed Orange men actually attacked the guy recording the video after the band did. I don't know how you can deflect a fully valid argument about a bigoted organisation by mentioning "ohh but there a reprehensible republican elements too". I fully accept that bigotry exists on both sides of the community and that arson is never acceptable, but I do support the rights of the GARC to hold a counter demonstration. The 12th of July is a sectarian pogrom every year, could you imagine if Republicans and the AOH marched down the Shankil wearing Easter Lillies and singing sectarian songs. I couldn’t imagine it happening let alone being as peaceful and restrained as the vast majority of nationalists are during such an inflammatory time of the year.

I agree with you entirely on those points - if the OO can march, so too can Republicans. It's only fair. However, you cannot possibly say that all members of the Orange Order are bigoted and support violence - there are of course, a small minority that aren't opposed to using it, but it is not a violent organisation. Those members who are violent do not act in the spirit of the Orange Order, as I'm sure you'd agree that violent republicans don't act in the spirit of Republicanism. I'm not trying to justify loyalist violence by saying that there is republican violence - both are reprehensible. It's just that lots of people do tend to forget that bigotry exists on both sides.

What I don't understand is that if you don't agree with the Orange Order and the 12th July parades, why watch? Put it this way - if Republicans marched down my street with Easter Lilies and sang republican songs, I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't be watching it either, hell bent on causing trouble, as a small amount of Republicans are during the 12th.

I'm not just addressing you, I'm just speaking on a general level.

[GR3YFOXXX]

It's not like I was out watching the parades, but my apartment is near Sandy Row and the vast number of Bonfires dotted aroung N.I, which are draped with nationalist symbols, are quite simply repugnant. One in 2011 had an effigy of the Bloody Sunday victims. It's a sectarian holiday for which I get two days off work and I cant really do anything as I feel threatened when I leave my apartment.

The Orange Order are by and far the largest proponents of the 11th/12th and they quite simply don't do enough to promote inclusion. The order by it's very definition is a sectarian organisation, Peter Robinson for example was criticised for attending the Catholic funeral mass of a murdered police officer (Ronan Kerr). The Orange Order allow bands with Loyalist paramilitary insignias to march in it's parades whilst openly playing racist and sectarian songs. I know many many unionists who do not support the orange order, a great many of my closest friends are unionist but they wouldn't tolerate a similarly sectarian nationalist march through mixed/unionist areas. In my opinion the order deserves no place in any shared future.

[IRSP044]

(Original post by Catherine.)
I agree with you entirely on those points - if the OO can march, so too can Republicans. It's only fair. However, you cannot possibly say that all members of the Orange Order are bigoted and support violence - there are of course, a small minority that aren't opposed to using it, but it is not a violent organisation. Those members who are violent do not act in the spirit of the Orange Order, as I'm sure you'd agree that violent republicans don't act in the spirit of Republicanism. I'm not trying to justify loyalist violence by saying that there is republican violence - both are reprehensible. It's just that lots of people do tend to forget that bigotry exists on both sides.

What I don't understand is that if you don't agree with the Orange Order and the 12th July parades, why watch? Put it this way - if Republicans marched down my street with Easter Lilies and sang republican songs, I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't be watching it either, hell bent on causing trouble, as a small amount of Republicans are during the 12th.

I'm not just addressing you, I'm just speaking on a general level.

Republican parades aren't sectarian and bigoted though. They are inclusive unlike OO parades. It is not a worry anyway as republicans would not force their parades through an area where they aren't wanted anyway.

Republicans didn't cause the violence in they doyne anyway. As GARC said, hoods from north and west Belfast reacted to stone throwing by loyalists. Republicans called for calm throughout the day.