[Annoying-Mouse]

Obama recently said this, how on earth is this even a controversial opinion? Isn't it pretty much a fact? It doesn't really matter whether you were self-made. Your success, in pretty much all cases I've seen, can be attributed to luck e.g. born in privileged part of the world, parents that taught you the value in hard work, schools/teachers that nurtured you and your interests, environment (friends/family) that encouraged your interest, random new idea came to your head, found the right clients etc. Just because one of these factors doesn't apply to you doesn't mean the others don't.

[Happydude]

I agree with the sentiment, but I think people may get offended at the implication that the hard work they have put in means nothing.

[internet tough guy]

Then criminals aren't responsible for their own deeds

Thats pretty much the logic in america, every man for themselves, everyone is reponsible for his/her success/downfall. They're fiercely protective of the idea that individuals determines their own destiny, hence the whole American dream.

[Tom_Hagen]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Obama recently said this, how on earth is this even a controversial opinion? Isn't it pretty much a fact? It doesn't really matter whether you were self-made. Your success, in pretty much all cases I've seen, can be attributed to luck e.g. born in privileged part of the world, parents that taught you the value in hard work, schools/teachers that nurtured you and your interests, environment (friends/family) that encouraged your interest, random new idea came to your head, found the right clients etc. Just because one of these factors doesn't apply to you doesn't mean the others don't.

This IS controversial, because he is trying to use that as an argument for increased involvement of the state in people's lives. He wants an even larger state. Most people will not deny that as we live in communities, people influence each other's decisions.

(Original post by ZeroHedge)
The sad 'this-is-how-politics-works' punchline of this brief animated clip is "those who can afford political influence get the benefits; and those who cannot afford it suffer the consequences" as Professor Matt Zwolinski attempts to balance the question the common claim that 'capitalism exploits the masses for the benefit of the few' - implicitly advocating increased government power - by suggesting (shock, horror) that government power may be more exploitative than free-market capitalism. In just over two minutes, Zwolinski argues that bigger government (thanks to cronyism among other things) makes citizens more vulnerable to exploitation given its power to coerce - intriguing given the recent comments by Obama.

An interesting and relevant video clip.

[AspiringGenius]

Although this is a generalisation, there is a widespread belief amongst richer peoplpe that they work much harder than their less affluent counterparts.

[Drewski]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Obama recently said this, how on earth is this even a controversial opinion? Isn't it pretty much a fact? It doesn't really matter whether you were self-made. Your success, in pretty much all cases I've seen, can be attributed to luck e.g. born in privileged part of the world, parents that taught you the value in hard work, schools/teachers that nurtured you and your interests, environment (friends/family) that encouraged your interest, random new idea came to your head, found the right clients etc. Just because one of these factors doesn't apply to you doesn't mean the others don't.

Yeah, I'm sure Bill Gates and all the Windows bods along with Jobs, Wozniacki and the Apple bods all just 'stumbled' across a multi-billion dollar organisation... The notion that it was luck that built up empires like that is a little far fetched, so I can see why some would have issues.

Ok, they were 'lucky' to have been born in the West. But so are millions of others and they're not equally wealthy.

[SilverArch]

(Original post by Drewski)
Yeah, I'm sure Bill Gates and all the Windows bods along with Jobs, Wozniacki and the Apple bods all just 'stumbled' across a multi-billion dollar organisation... The notion that it was luck that built up empires like that is a little far fetched, so I can see why some would have issues.

Ok, they were 'lucky' to have been born in the West. But so are millions of others and they're not equally wealthy.

Mmm, but if you invent something or want to sell a product, it's not just a matter of sticking some adverts up. It has to hit the market at the right time in order to sell well, so there is luck involved. You could have the best idea ever, but if you had it in the wrong year, you won't be very successful. Obviously the above people put in huge legwork themselves as well

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Drewski)
Yeah, I'm sure Bill Gates and all the Windows bods along with Jobs, Wozniacki and the Apple bods all just 'stumbled' across a multi-billion dollar organisation... The notion that it was luck that built up empires like that is a little far fetched, so I can see why some would have issues.

Ok, they were 'lucky' to have been born in the West. But so are millions of others and they're not equally wealthy.

Well durh but it would be foolish to deny that being born in the west gave them an advantage and the fact is Gates was naturally above-average in terms of intelligence and came from a middle-class home and went to a top private school that nurtured his interests. I doubt he would deny it considering Bill Gates seems to be similar to Obama, politically.

[Miracle Day]

(Original post by internet tough guy)
Then criminals aren't responsible for their own deeds

Thats pretty much the logic in america, every man for themselves, everyone is reponsible for his/her success/downfall. They're fiercely protective of the idea that individuals determines their own destiny, hence the whole American dream.

I agree.

For the past 2 days I've been in a magistrates court and out of about 20 cases I've observed only 2 of them didn't look like complete wasters who were brought up in good homes. The others were chavs that grew up on estates that have been offending and re-offending since they were juevenille.

You could take Mother Theresa, let her grow up the same way as these criminals have and she'll be a chavvy slag who sells herself for heroine.

[TheJ0ker]

All the ideas that made these people super rich was down to luck and not down to creativity and intelligence?

[Drewski]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Well durh but it would be foolish to deny that being born in the west gave them an advantage and the fact is Gates was naturally above-average in terms of intelligence and came from a middle-class home and went to a top private school that nurtured his interests. I doubt he would deny it considering Bill Gates seems to be similar to Obama, politically.

My point is though that the same could be said about thousands if not millions of other people. But they're not billionaires. Not even millionaires. What's the difference? Among a few things it'll be work ethic. They worked extremely hard to make their products work. It's not all blind luck.

[Top Banana]

...And this just proves why America is losing its way in the world. Isnt Obamas statement at direct odds to the idea of the American Dream? That if you work hard then you can succeed at life?

[Tom_Hagen]

(Original post by SilverArch)
Mmm, but if you invent something or want to sell a product, it's not just a matter of sticking some adverts up. It has to hit the market at the right time in order to sell well, so there is luck involved. You could have the best idea ever, but if you had it in the wrong year, you won't be very successful. Obviously the above people put in huge legwork themselves as well

"If you are right at the wrong time, you are wrong." I believe Yra Harris said that.

Timing the release of a product, idea, invention etc requires skill too and A LOT of research and preparation goes into it. To suggest that most companies or individuals just release a product willy nilly and let luck decide whether their timing was right or not is simply wrong.

[Azaro]

wondered what steve jobs would say about it.

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by AspiringGenius)
Although this is a generalisation, there is a widespread belief amongst richer peoplpe that they work much harder than their less affluent counterparts.

Yes, it is a generalisation and it's an incredibly stupid thing to believe without any evidence to back it up. Capital makes capital, and so we could just as easily make the wild claim that a richer person has to do less work.

[funsongfactory]

Yeah someone who works 20 hours a day isn't responsible for being more successful than someone who works a normal 9-5 day...

[AspiringGenius]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
Yes, it is a generalisation and it's an incredibly stupid thing to believe without any evidence to back it up. Capital makes capital, and so we could just as easily make the wild claim that a richer person has to do less work.

The thing is, that although wealth and hard work aren't entirely independent, they aren't necessarily parallel. One can invest the same effort, if not more than a wealthy individual, yet be less prosperous due to chance, or what they are actually doing.

[jacketpotato]

That its not what Obama said, its an outrageously misleading headline. What he actually said was this:

“If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges.”

[akash11]

(Original post by funsongfactory)
Yeah someone who works 20 hours a day isn't responsible for being more successful than someone who works a normal 9-5 day...

Does eveyone have the oppertunity to work 20 hours a day? Does eveyone have the oppertunuity to work/find a field where the wealth you put in proptional to the wealth you get?

[jumpingjesusholycow]

There is no such thing as isolated financial success. The existence of the wealthy is dependent on the existence of the proletarian.

That said, there are a lot of wealthy individuals who got to their position through hard work and elbow grease.