[monk_keys]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
So again I ask you think it is fine if an innocent person dies because of a police officers actions?

Bit of a leading question...

The answer is, 'it can be under certain circumstances'. Life is fragile and pretty much any action has the potential to kill someone. Considering the context of the day itself I don't think pushing someone is a reckless or negligent action.

[hamijack]

Having been wrongly arrested for quite a serious crime on the basis of heresay and having been kettled, I have every reason to dislike and distrust the police. However I do pretty much trust the average PC, just not the Territorial Support Group or any other police at a demonstration.

[Jack93o]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
Apparently the police hate it when people start quoting law texts and show their knowledge of the law at them

they hate being challenged in general

bless them though, their little feelings can be so easily hurt if you do so much as raise your voice at them

[madders94]

The police are human; they are not a super-human race, they are people who are doing a job and the majority do it for the good of the general public. Like in every job, there'll be those who go into it for the wrong reasons and abuse their power, but we can't mistrust a massive group of people based on the actions of a few.

Whenever I see people saying "I hate the police" or "**** the police", it's an immediate assumption that they're not very clever. What's the alternative? We don't have any law enforcement at all? I feel sorry for the police; you get teachers who sleep with their pupils but you never see people shouting "I hate all teachers", "all teachers are pigs", "teachers deserve to die".

The police don't make the laws; they can only enforce them to the extent they've been told they can enforce it. If people were unhappy with the way they were treated during the riots; why did they take it out on the police on the ground by throwing stuff at them? There was absolutely no excuse for that, and it sickens me when people blame the police for the riots.

TL;DR - I will trust any policeman unless they as an individual have done something in the past to suggest that they aren't trustworthy - the same way as I treat any other person.

[TM94]

I trust them in my area anyway, not sure if I would down south like.

A truly shocking decision in the Tomlinson case.

[TM94]

I wonder if this could trigger more summer rioting?

Hope not.

[Halogenation]

As I have been recently saying due to it being a lyric in a few rap songs; Yo' F**K THE POLICE, MOTHERF**K THE POLICE

[jumpingjesusholycow]

(Original post by ForensicShoe)
My grandad had a 30 minute conversation with an armed police officer when he was in a London hospital the other day. Apparently this chap had been guarding the hospital room of someone who'd been on the receiving end of an assassination attempt earlier in the week and he gave up quite a bit of his time, just after coming off shift, to talk to my grandad about past military service (my grandad served in the RAF regiment and I think this officer had relatives who had/were serving), his job, his weapon, etc. Thought it was rather sweet of him to do so

It's always nice to hear stuff like that happen

I personally couldn't get along more than I do with the French police. They are much more heavily armed than our police, but they're as amiable and friendly as anyone else. Lovely blokes (and blokettes of course).

[Aust1n]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
Apparently the police hate it when people start quoting law texts and show their knowledge of the law at them

Because they get confused and realise they should know it all too? But they only know basic things to do with keeping the peace on a Saturday night in Boozeville?

Anybody see the result of the case today? That is why we shouldn't trust the police or the CJS.

[Sir Fox]

(Original post by madders94)
The police are human; they are not a super-human race, they are people who are doing a job and the majority do it for the good of the general public. Like in every job, there'll be those who go into it for the wrong reasons and abuse their power, but we can't mistrust a massive group of people based on the actions of a few.

Whenever I see people saying "I hate the police" or "**** the police", it's an immediate assumption that they're not very clever. What's the alternative? We don't have any law enforcement at all? I feel sorry for the police; you get teachers who sleep with their pupils but you never see people shouting "I hate all teachers", "all teachers are pigs", "teachers deserve to die".

The police don't make the laws; they can only enforce them to the extent they've been told they can enforce it. If people were unhappy with the way they were treated during the riots; why did they take it out on the police on the ground by throwing stuff at them? There was absolutely no excuse for that, and it sickens me when people blame the police for the riots.

TL;DR - I will trust any policeman unless they as an individual have done something in the past to suggest that they aren't trustworthy - the same way as I treat any other person.

100% supported.

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by Pads)
The push was not the one single factor that killed him.

From what I have read (granted what I have read), while the push and strike wasn't exactly what caused his death, they did cause the reason for the death (internal bleeding). Now, yes he bled more because of his ill health, but that doesn't change the fact the coppers actions is what caused the bleeding.

(Original post by Pads)
Therefore I dont believe you can fairly put a guy in prison for it who was doing his job.

We put war criminals in prison "just doing their jobs" don't we? In any case, hitting an innocent person is not a police officers job.

(Original post by Pads)
I know you don't agree with me and will carry on trying to change my mind or make me sound like I am suggesting its ok for police to go out onto the street and kill innocent people. If thats what you want to do then carry on.

1 - I am not trying to change anyones mind.
2 - That is what you suggested though!

(Original post by monk_keys)
Bit of a leading question...

Point being? The person I was replying to said that, and I quote, "but these things happens where there are protests like that". I do not agree. I don't think innocent people have to die at the hands of the police at protests.

(Original post by monk_keys)
The answer is, 'it can be under certain circumstances'.

Not in the contexts of Ian Tomlinson.

(Original post by monk_keys)
Life is fragile and pretty much any action has the potential to kill someone.

And if your action kills someone then you should be held accountable for that.

(Original post by monk_keys)
Considering the context of the day itself I don't think pushing someone is a reckless or negligent action.

If Ian Tomlinson had been involved in the protests, or if he was provoking the officers, I would agree with you. But he wasn't. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[IndyAM]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
If Ian Tomlinson had been involved in the protests, or if he was provoking the officers, I would agree with you. But he wasn't. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

How could the officer have possibly known if he was part of the protest? I agree he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, however a jury of impartial people found him not guilty, which is enough for me.

It is unfortunate that he was pushed by the officer in question, however other factors have to be taken into consideration such as the man's health and amount of alcohol inside him.

[monk_keys]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)

Point being? The person I was replying to said that, and I quote, "but these things happens where there are protests like that". I do not agree. I don't think innocent people have to die at the hands of the police at protests.

The point being you're deliberately asking a question that actually doesn't relate to the argument?

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Not in the contexts of Ian Tomlinson.

Your opinion.

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
And if your action kills someone then you should be held accountable for that.

Depends on the circumstances. In this case I don't believe so.

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
If Ian Tomlinson had been involved in the protests, or if he was provoking the officers, I would agree with you. But he wasn't. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He wasn't pushed over as a punishment for being a protester. He was pushed forward to move him from the area. He fell over, probably because he was drunk and because his hands were in his pocket so he would have had poor balance. If I were in a volatile situation like that right next to the police I would expect to get pushed so I don't think it was an unreasonable action.

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by IndyAM)
How could the officer have possibly known if he was part of the protest? I agree he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, however a jury of impartial people found him not guilty, which is enough for me.

It was pretty obvious he was always going to be found not guilty. Not that I am at all cynical.
And it doesn't matter if he was or wasn't part of the protest really. He was not acting illegally and did nothing to provoke the officer. Thus the baton strike and push that ended up killing him were simply not needed and judging on what we are now learning about the officer, were just typical of someone who had anger issues.

(Original post by IndyAM)
It is unfortunate that he was pushed by the officer in question, however other factors have to be taken into consideration such as the man's health and amount of alcohol inside him.

Neither of which matter.
If your actions lead to the death of someone, then you should be held accountable. Simple really.

[Cannotbelieveit]

I trust them, they do a good job considering how poor their funding is, the riots highlighted how undermanned and stretched they are.

[IndyAM]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
It was pretty obvious he was always going to be found not guilty. Not that I am at all cynical.
And it doesn't matter if he was or wasn't part of the protest really. He was not acting illegally and did nothing to provoke the officer. Thus the baton strike and push that ended up killing him were simply not needed and judging on what we are now learning about the officer, were just typical of someone who had anger issues.

While he may have had anger issues, he was clearly holding up the police line. I 100% agree it was too much to hit him with the baton, but a nudge or strong word would've sped him up. Equally, the police could've used guns on him, so he wasn't at the very extreme of options he could've used.

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Neither of which matter.
If your actions lead to the death of someone, then you should be held accountable. Simple really.

I disagree, while it is unfortunate that this happened, it can't be argued that pushing someone over could reasonably kill them. Simple really.

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by monk_keys)
The point being you're deliberately asking a question that actually doesn't relate to the argument?

Of course it relates to the argument! I was replying to a direct point that was made by a person in this thread.

(Original post by monk_keys)
Your opinion.

Not at all. Killing an innocent person who is not part of a protest and is not provoking the police officer is just wrong. Simple as. Tomlinson was not doing anything to get the treatment he received.

(Original post by monk_keys)
Depends on the circumstances. In this case I don't believe so.

As above. If your irresponsible and unneeded actions lead to an innocent persons death, then you need to be held responsible. As I said above, we are now learning things about the particular copper that makes what happened no surprise at all (perviously involved in disciplinary issues, a short temper, etc).

(Original post by monk_keys)
He was pushed forward to move him from the area.

And you think that is reasonable behaviour? A copper hitting someone with a baton and then pushing someone over to clear the area?

(Original post by monk_keys)
He fell over, probably because he was drunk and because his hands were in his pocket so he would have had poor balance.

OR, he fell over because the baton hit caused internal bleeding and a significant amount of pain?

(Original post by monk_keys)
If I were in a volatile situation like that right next to the police I would expect to get pushed so I don't think it was an unreasonable action.

Sad state of society that you would expect to get pushed and hit by a baton by the police. Says a lot really.

[unclej]

(Original post by Pads)
and i believe it was the right verdict. Was just a tragic turn of events but these things happens where there are protests like that.

these things happen because of police brutality

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by IndyAM)
While he may have had anger issues

I don't think you can gloss over it so easily. From what has come out, there is no way the copper should have been there in the first place.

(Original post by IndyAM)
I 100% agree it was too much to hit him with the baton, but a nudge or strong word would've sped him up.

So why wasn't that done?

(Original post by IndyAM)
Equally, the police could've used guns on him, so he wasn't at the very extreme of options he could've used.

Similar to what I said to monk_keys, I think its a sad sign of society when we say "oh well, it could have been worse, he could have been shot". In any case, it wouldn't have mattered if he had been shot. Hell he may have had a better chance of living.

(Original post by IndyAM)
I disagree, while it is unfortunate that this happened, it can't be argued that pushing someone over could reasonably kill them. Simple really.

IIRC manslaughter doesn't require intent, or even anticipation. If your actions directly lead to someones death (which they did in this case), then that is manslaughter. His ill health doesn't matter. It is irrelevant. Not knowing about someones condition is NOT an excuse for any action which may then kill them. It doesn't matter that his body was more likely to suffer internal bleeding. What does matter is that the police officers actions CAUSED that internal bleeding.

[cyfer]

Grey area.

I mainly do trust them but I have suspicion, as I do with everything.

Suspicion pertaining to corruption or other such.