[4TSR]

Punishing an oppressive regime with oppressing people who have nothing to do with said regime in a country that prides it self with freedom.

tl;dr: OP is an actual idiot without a sense of common sense.

[X_mark_the_spot]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Alright, what kind of measures are you referring to exactly that are in place in other countries? The problem here is there's no evidence for your assertions of their being a problem. If the problem was identified and it was clear that the majority or a big number of them wear it because they feel they have to and have no support, then there could be some action.

Yes, there is proof, because I have just told you of the people I know who don't want to wear it or even a Hijab. There are no laws on the book forbidding or criminalising the forcing of women to wear either garment, because we all know at the end of the day that retaliation follows for many who defy this custom. A law to ban such retaliation would be a good start.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by X_mark_the_spot)
Yes, there is proof, because I have just told you of the people I know who don't want to wear it or even a Hijab. There are no laws on the book forbidding or criminalising the forcing of women to wear either garment, because we all know at the end of the day that retaliation follows for many who defy this custom. A law to ban such retaliation would be a good start.

Proof of the scale. All you're doing is making new laws when there's no need for them. It's already illegal to force someone to wear something they don't want to (unless you're in jail or something) and any violent retaliation is also outlawed. What would such a law achieve exactly?

[InvertedLayman]

(Original post by HomoSapiensSap)
What is up with that?

If a British person goes on holiday to Saudi Arabia, they are expected to respect the customs and culture of that country. Therefore, a British woman would not wear a mini-skirt or a bikini (unless permitted on certain private beaches).

However, here in Britain, the customs and culture are not respected and we have numerous women wrapped up in otherwordly burqas. But if a British woman were to wear a mini-skirt in Saudi, there would be uproar and great pandemonium.

Has Britain become a pushover?

Or is there something I'm not being told? That is, is it universally agreed that Britain is to become an 'international country' like the USA or Canada? (If so, then I shall stop complaining since it's agreed by the populace...)

Well?

Is it against the religious.. err.. secular rules of this country that modesty and covering up is a criminal act? Nope. Is it against the culture? Nope, it is.. nay was part of the culture. You're screwing up your own culture.

[ZeeAli]

(Original post by Joe909)
Burqa = Right to religious practice.

Miniskirt = Right to fashion ?

It's not a matter of customs and cultures, I believe that if a Muslim is actually a practicing, good Muslim, they should have every right to practise their religon.

However if they are getting drunk every night, getting pregnant etc they should just give up on their belief and meld with British culture.

That point does not override their freedom to religious practice.

You wouldn't ban a Jewish hat would you ?

Here here!

[Ski Bum]

(Original post by X_mark_the_spot)
And yet, the rampant islamophobia in the UK suggests that perhaps it's not as liberal as you think. Perhaps there are certain beliefs/practices that are sacrosanct in every society, even if politically correct UK citizens want to deny it in public. People are disgruntled. For example, if some sect was to force white British women to wear something like a burqa, you would get feminist organisations of every stripe up in arms about the oppression, no matter how "justified" this practice was. But change the race and make it middle eastern women, and suddenly it's okay to allow women to be "forced" to wear this garment (because not all of them choose to do so). They're different from us, so it's called liberalism when society turns a blind eye to this oppression. Pfft

Tolerance of intolerance is not tolerance or liberal. It is basically washing your hands of responsibility for a group y ofof women whom people feel are "different" from them, and therefore none of their concern.

But banning the burka is not an effective way of dealing with the issue of oppression in certain sections of society, we have to deal with the wider cultures that make it acceptable for men to dictate what women wear. Treat the root problem not the symptoms.

[flibdoo]

(Original post by PopaPork)
But covering your face is considered suspicious something only done by criminals and those with nefarious intent

Peace

Considered such by morons. Peace.

[TenOfThem]

(Original post by HomoSapiensSap)
If a British person goes on holiday to Saudi Arabia, they are expected to respect the customs and culture of that country. Therefore, a British woman would not wear a mini-skirt or a bikini

However, here in Britain, the customs and culture are not respected and we have numerous women wrapped up in otherwordly burqas. But if a British woman were to wear a mini-skirt in Saudi, there would be uproar and great pandemonium.

What are the "customs and culture" that make the burka unacceptable

[MrBlueMo0n]

(Original post by Tedaus)
So we should ban burqas because they look silly? In that case, I propose a ban on chinos, three quarter length trousers, mohawk hair cuts and white suits with black shirts. Makes sense right?

No! I think THEY should allow mini skirts! And also, people should be able to swim without wearing burkas. Fair enough?

[siwelmail]

the mini-skirt isn't part of our religion.

[Tedaus]

(Original post by MrBlueMo0n)
No! I think THEY should allow mini skirts! And also, people should be able to swim without wearing burkas. Fair enough?

Yeah obviously they should. People should be free to do what they want, but it's not as simple as that, especially in countries like Saudi Arabia.

[MrBlueMo0n]

(Original post by Tedaus)
Yeah obviously they should. People should be free to do what they want, but it's not as simple as that, especially in countries like Saudi Arabia.

And why not? You'll say religion (I think). Then I'll say, 'well, what does that tell you? Religion is bad'. Then you'll disagree, probably, and if not you then somebody in this thread will have the common TSR decency to dislike my comment, just because they can't accept my reasoning about religion.

[badcheesecrispy]

to be honest, i hate seeing people with their face fully covered

other muslim gear doesnt bother me, some of the womens clothes are quite nicely coloured

saudi arabia is an islamic dictatorship and the uk is a secular land of freedom therefore the laws cannot be compared

over there if you leave islam, drink or blaspheme look forward to having your head cut off by a bearded man in a white cloak with a sword, in the middle of the desert

[badcheesecrispy]

(Original post by siwelmail)
the mini-skirt isn't part of our religion.

the burka isnt an islamic need and that i have been told by many muslims

its a culture thing as is wearing mini skirts in uk culture

[Tedaus]

(Original post by MrBlueMo0n)
And why not? You'll say religion (I think). Then I'll say, 'well, what does that tell you? Religion is bad'. Then you'll disagree, probably, and if not you then somebody in this thread will have the common TSR decency to dislike my comment, just because they can't accept my reasoning about religion.

No, I agree that "Religion is bad", although I wouldn't put it as simplistically as that, but actively attempting to ban religious dresswear is not a free society, no matter how much you disagree with it. Imagine if someone disagreed with the way you lived and then went on to attempt to ban a certain aspect of it. I'd imagine you'd be pretty pissed off and call for "free speech!"

[X_mark_the_spot]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Proof of the scale. All you're doing is making new laws when there's no need for them. It's already illegal to force someone to wear something they don't want to (unless you're in jail or something) and any violent retaliation is also outlawed. What would such a law achieve exactly?

Well, I wouldn't quite say that there is no need; society is evolving. And unless I've overlooked some little gem of a legislation, I don't know of any that expressly prohibit imposition of religious attire, something I believe is necessary in a secular state. What would such a law achieve? Well, it would ideally provide reassurance for those who currently feel they have no recourse to the law, were they to choose to reject strictly imposed religious dicta. And let's face it, Islam is quite strict compared to other religions in the West. Of course this is all an ideal, but I think acknowledging this problem is necessary for many who move to the West and no longer feel like they should remain victim to the pressure of their traditional customs.

[Leahcar]

You raise a good point, OP.

[X_mark_the_spot]

(Original post by Ski Bum)
But banning the burka is not an effective way of dealing with the issue of oppression in certain sections of society, we have to deal with the wider cultures that make it acceptable for men to dictate what women wear. Treat the root problem not the symptoms.

I agree. I haven't anywhere suggested that the burqa should be banned; I was just drawing an analogy. What I did suggest however, is that this situation should at least be acknowledged, and laws should be put in place prohibiting the forced imposition of religious attire. Moreover, UK should really be more proactive in welcoming its immigrants, otherwise why even bother opening your borders to people whom you'll just later force into ethnic ghettos. It's a sad sight, really.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by X_mark_the_spot)
Well, I wouldn't quite say that there is no need; society is evolving. And unless I've overlooked some little gem of a legislation, I don't know of any that expressly prohibit imposition of religious attire, something I believe is necessary in a secular state. What would such a law achieve? Well, it would ideally provide reassurance for those who currently feel they have no recourse to the law, were they to choose to reject strictly imposed religious dicta. And let's face it, Islam is quite strict compared to other religions in the West. Of course this is all an ideal, but I think acknowledging this problem is necessary for many who move to the West and no longer feel like they should remain victim to the pressure of their traditional customs.

Doesn't imposition of attire (unless in jail or something) fall under battery thus illegal? If it's non-physical contact but threats then doesn't it fall under blackmail thus illegal?

In my opinion, the law isn't going to tackle anything. From my observations on growing up in an a Muslim community most of my life, women are pressured legally to adhere to religious clothing. For example, if a women chooses not to adhere to the religious clothing she'll be shunned from the community and her name shamed. I'd be willing to bet the threat of that happening is more of a factor than the threat of honor killings and whatnot which are pretty rare. How are you supposed to tackle that, especially when the person grew up in a family-oriented environment? Some things are just beyond the scope of general society/law to fix. The best way to fix problem like these is to liberalize Islam and I can't see Islamic world having a age of enlightenment and it'll take 50+ years at least before we properly globalize enough for Islam to become heavily liberalized.

[MrBlueMo0n]

(Original post by Tedaus)
No, I agree that "Religion is bad", although I wouldn't put it as simplistically as that, but actively attempting to ban religious dresswear is not a free society, no matter how much you disagree with it. Imagine if someone disagreed with the way you lived and then went on to attempt to ban a certain aspect of it. I'd imagine you'd be pretty pissed off and call for "free speech!"

But I wouldn't ban burkas, I'd allow them not to wear them. See? That is completely 100% fair. And if it's the women who don't want to wear them, but the men make them, then it'd be the men calling for free speech over the women, if it was the case that I was banning burkas. Silly. Stupid. So either way, it could be as simple as that. We could call it the burka war!