[Astronomical]

Why have "societal norms", specifically pertaining to sexuality and religion, changed to such a large extent over the course of human history?

I've recently been reading about the Ancient Greeks, and two particular facets of their culture really shocked me, in that they differed so much from what is "normal" or "acceptable" nowadays.

The first of these was the sexuality of Ancient Greek men and women. In this book by Robin Lane Fox it is said that our ancient counterparts were more or less all openly bisexual. Every man did marry a women, but simultaneously would enjoy frequent sex with other males. Women, by the same token, always married a man (sometimes more than one man) but would engage in sexual acts with other women, too. It's hard to see how later animosity and judging against same-sex relations developed out of such a scenario. There is even a photo in the book, of an ancient fragment of a vase, in which an older Greek man is fondling a young boy, essentially what would today be called a paedophile; the fact it is on pottery tells you that this was not only accepted, but common! Bizarre!

The other element that surprised me was that, in the same book, the author points out that very much unlike religions today, these ancient people would worship their own Gods, as you would expect, but also worship the "local Gods" if ever they were in a foreign land. Can you imagine something akin to that happening between Christians and Muslims and so on today?

Anyhow, what are peoples' thoughts regarding the societal norms of today compared with those throughout history? Don't you find it astonishing how things that were once normal can undergo such vast changes in public perception?

Edit: Apologies for the thread title, it's not only erroneous but isn't quite what I meant to ask, either.

[Revilo1]

The differences between our culture and, for example, the Ancient Greeks', is probably due to which other cultures affected them. Since people tended to stay in one place for most of their lives, then their culture would develop almost in isolation, whereas nowadays there are fewer differences between a lot of cultures (e.g. Britain and America).

I do find it quite shocking, as I was always under the impression that such liberal ideas were generally thought of much later, or at least weren't common so long ago. Although the bit about the old man and the kid seems just a little too liberal, imo...

Regarding the local Gods you mentioned, I think - correct me if I'm wrong - that people were more tolerant of similar religions back then, and due to how little people moved from place to place, people who once shared the same Gods would end up with slightly different, localised 'versions'.

And I think it isn't that astonishing when you consider everything that has happened in history between the present day and Ancient Greece - that is a long time and a lot of generations for things to fairly gradually change to where they are now.

[Martyn*]

Christianity came.

[ufo2012]

(Original post by Martyn*)
Christianity came.

And this is pretty much it. For when it came, it found the greeks to be disgusting and immoral in their behaviour.

[nexttime]

Indeed - homosexuality was actively encouraged specifically within the army to encourage bonding and teamwork. It also extends to issues like abortion: It was not only acceptable to abort, but also to kill infants after birth. Babies would just be left outside on the street to die. Hippocrates actually wrote a text on abortion.

Why? You could write many many PhDs on that. The rise of christianity did correlate with the change, but that isn't really a satisfactory explanation. People picked and chose what parts of christianity they wanted, so why did they adopt this part and reject others? Why did it last for so long after the church lost its influence in england and elsewhere?

Could STIs explain it? They could have created a selection pressure against the promiscuous and backed up the church's claims. I don't see much evidence for STIs before syphilis though, and that came from the americas in the 15th century - pretty late.

On a side note: one thing i do find very odd is the morality of sexuality amongst conservatives, specifically the republicans in the US. Their overriding stance is that government is bad - we need the smallest government possible to let freedom run itself. The government has no right to tell us what to do, yada yada. The single glaring exception to this is sex, where they seem to want the government to tell everyone exactly how to behave: You can't sleep with another man. You can't sleep with lots of people. The church has to agree to marry you before you can have sex. Contraception is bad. If a child arises, you have to have the child and raise it. Why do they care about this particular issue so much??!! I'm almost surprised that they haven't released a list of republican party approved sexual positions. Seems the next logical step.

[JCC-MGS]

Humans are predisposed to extremism. A new ideology grabs us and we run with it to its end without trying to integrate it into past beliefs because generations are so short. From the 1960s the world has transformed, for better or worse, as a result of the liberal surge. The same happened with Christianity and when we find the next thing to cling to we will pour ourselves into it completely as a society, just like we have before

[Emaemmaemily]

Yes, homosexual acts was actually encouraged and considered the norm, and not just in ancient greek times either.
While men worked it was considered normal for a woman to seek pleasure and "satisfaction" from another woman, and the men would do the same. They generally only made children within marriage, but they were much more open about sexual relations of all mannarisms.

This is something that I've always found quite interesting. In places like Europe, when people were largely Christians, this was even normal and celebrated before the 14th century.

[ufo2012]

(Original post by nexttime)
On a side note: one thing i do find very odd is the morality of sexuality amongst conservatives, specifically the republicans in the US. I'm almost surprised that they haven't released a list of republican party approved sexual positions. Seems the next logical step.

lol this would be a very interesting read.

I can almost picture it already showing the list of allowed and disallowed positions and it would include something that shows no gay bonking is allowed, probably looking something like this:

[MancStudent098]

(Original post by Astronomical)
The first of these was the sexuality of Ancient Greek men and women. In this book by Robin Lane Fox it is said that our ancient counterparts were more or less all openly bisexual.

You're referring to a specific period of Greek history. Those attitudes didn't hold for the entire period of Greek civilisation and there were considerable backlashes against pederasty in particular at certain points. An interesting marker of Greek attitudes to same sex relationships is the story of Achilles and Patroclus, at some points in time they were considered lovers, at others just brothers in arms.

In the modern movie Troy they made it very clear that he was just Achilles' cousin, presumably because any homoerotic undertones wouldn't have gone down too well with an American audience.

[Publius]

The spectre of Christianity and monotheism continues to haunt us.

We are consequently sexually repressed, ashamed and depraved.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by nexttime)
On a side note: one thing i do find very odd is the morality of sexuality amongst conservatives, specifically the republicans in the US. Their overriding stance is that government is bad - we need the smallest government possible to let freedom run itself. The government has no right to tell us what to do, yada yada. The single glaring exception to this is sex, where they seem to want the government to tell everyone exactly how to behave: You can't sleep with another man. You can't sleep with lots of people. The church has to agree to marry you before you can have sex. Contraception is bad. If a child arises, you have to have the child and raise it. Why do they care about this particular issue so much??!! I'm almost surprised that they haven't released a list of republican party approved sexual positions. Seems the next logical step.

I haven't seen any serious republicans believe that the government should stop homosexual relationships, even if there is 1 serious republican who believes that the vast vast vast vast majority don't believe anything like that. Same with polygamy. Same with pre-martial sex. Same with contraception. Same with raising the child.

Most republicans may agree with that moral stance (although I don't think they do) but you'd be hard to find many who want government intervention in those areas. They don't agree with government recognizing same-sex/polygamous marriages but then again, isn't that reducing the influence of the government thus consistent with their ideology?

[Aoide]

The issue on gods makes a lot more sense when you consider how they viewed their gods. Many ancient cultures (greeks, romans,..) didn't view their gods like modern religions. Before the rise of monotheism the gods were much less powerful as individuals and were much more human, not at all distant and omnipotent like todays religions. While they were capable of incredible actions they also mixed with people and interacted with humanity. This down to earth view of the gods left room for other gods who may have just inhabitted another area.