[txo]

(Original post by secret_smile)
What about the slaughter of the male calves which are treated as an unwanted by-product of the dairy industry?
Or the male chicks (unwanted by the egg industry) that are slaughtered by maceration or gassing.

Just because it isn't a meat product, doesn't mean nothing had to die for it to be on the shelf in the supermarket.

But these animals aren't killed to obtain the produce. The animals that were killed weren't killed because of the animal that is producing milk/eggs. They were most likely killed because the farmer didn't want to have to pay for it if it's not giving the farmer income. That's more to do with the farmer's animal ethics.

[yun]

i recently watched a very good documentary about this topic. the bottom line was: due to the horrible conditions under which most of the animals that we eat are kept, pumped up on drugs (especially antibiotics), meat is pretty unhealthy. they said that eating more than 300 grams of red meat every week gives you a risk of getting cancer higher than that of a medium smoker.

other than that it illustrated how land is being away from poor people in paraguay by greedy soy farmers who use the space to produce the food for the animals that we eat.

considering the fact that no one in the world would suffer from hunger if all the soy that those animals are fed were given to people all over the world and the high emissions that are caused by cows and sheep, i really don't see any reason to eat meat except that it tastes good, but so do a lot of things

[Dinnes]

Think I kind of killed the discussion with that. Either that, or I've got numerous angry people typing furiously at me :P Oh dear

[loze21]

Has anyone seen the documentary Earthlings? It's one of the things that made me turn vegan. I've known people who have worked in chicken factories and now most of them don't even touch chicken, it just goes to show how awful the conditions are in slaughterhouses. If you aren't moved by how the badly the animals get treated in that video, then I'm baffled and I don't see how people can just dismiss this treatment?

This documentary might only be relevant to the US as it could be different in the UK, I may be wrong though. I would go and look it up on YouTube.

[Droplet1]

I was brought up as a vegetarian, and as I got older chose to stick to it as morally I was uncomfortable with the idea of eating animals, when we no longer need to.

However there are other reasons for a vegetarian or vegan diet which are on an even larger scale. I am now even more determined to stay vegetarian due to the impact the meat industry is having on our environment. I will post a link to this type of vegetarianism as there are too many facts/figures to write out myself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ..._vegetarianism

Although I don't judge or force vegetarianism on the meat eaters around me, I think it is important people know the effect the meat industry is having on our planet

[Dinnes]

(Original post by loze21)
Has anyone seen the documentary Earthlings? It's one of the things that made me turn vegan. I've known people who have worked in chicken factories and now most of them don't even touch chicken, it just goes to show how awful the conditions are in slaughterhouses. If you aren't moved by how the badly the animals get treated in that video, then I'm baffled and I don't see how people can just dismiss this treatment?

This documentary might only be relevant to the US as it could be different in the UK, I may be wrong though. I would go and look it up on YouTube.

The impression I've got from various Jamie Oliver programmes on it (he's a fairly outspoken supporter of ethical meat) is that the US has a particularly bad time of the issue, while other countries like the UK are ok as far as ethics are concerned.

[mattyb17]

Former veggie here, used to be veggie a few years ago, I love animals and thats the reason why I went veggie, I lasted 2 years but thought that the food was seriously bad (especially things by "Quorn!!!") however I do respect veggies a lot and think that the world would be a better place if there were more veggies around!

[callum9999]

(Original post by Bella_trixxx)
The meat industry, humane? Ahahaha.
On your other point though, many people actually don't know about the cruelty of the dairy and egg industry - I'd say they were easily crueller than the meat industry. Think about it - how can a cow produce milk without being permanently pregnant? And of course once the calves are born they're ripped apart from their mothers immediately to be used for meat, breeding or just killed. That, and the level of negligence and medication in dairy farms is shocking... standard dairy cows are medicated with recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH) to stimulate a much higher than normal milk production. This causes mastitis, an incredibly painful infection of the nipples. (Incidentally, this means that a good amount of the milk you drink contains pus - I can't remember the exact statistics on how much and my computer's being slow, but it's not a pretty thought).
As for eggs, "free range" eggs come from exactly the same hatcheries as battery hens, and cruel processes are used in both. Because only hens are useful to the industry male chickens are killed shortly after hatching, by suffocation or maceration (being crushed and ground up alive). They are also: debeaked with hot bloody blade at one day old, without anesthetic, force molted (intentionally starved to shock the body into another laying cycle), and at only 18 months old, the hens are considered spent (unable to keep laying eggs at a fast enough pace) and are killed by the cheapest means possible.

I really hope that didn't sound preachy, I'm not trying to change anyone's dietary habits but I do think it's important to know what's happened to what you eat and these (and more) are issues of which the public isn't generally aware, even I wasn't aware of the amount of cruelty that goes on in the dairy and egg industries until I was forced to start eating vegan for health reasons a year ago and did a bit of research. All the same, the treatment of animals today is FAR from humane, even in so called "free range" facilities, and there is certainly plenty of point in becoming a vegan.

That's one thing I've never understood. You just made a very compelling argument about the sheer level of cruelty that involves, but you have no desire to change peoples opinion on the matter (in person I understand, but anonymously on the internet when people can easily just ignore you if they were that bothered by it?)? Unless you don't actually care about it yourself, surely you should want to change peoples opinion?

[Bella_trixxx]

(Original post by Dinnes)
So basically, a few points to summarise:[LIST=1][*]You complain about rBGH when very few developed nations use it at all.[*]Baby calves aren't ripped from their mothers, they have around 8 or 9 months before they are even weaned, and remember that cows don't live as long as humans by any stretch of the imagination.[*]You are trying to turn the whole egg farming thing into a best-selling heart throb fiction. You need to provide actual sources if you want to make your argument substantiated and believable.

Yes sir!

1) You got me, in my speed I just looked up the first website I saw for statistics, which so happened to be a US website. My broader point wasn't the name of the hormone, though - it was the high rates of mastitis in dairy cows. These stand at about somewhere between 47 and 65 cases per 100 cows/year, which is an abnormally high amount, hormone or no hormone.
http://www.mastitiscontrolplan.co.uk...id=18&Itemid=8
http://www.reading.ac.uk/AcaDepts/aa...stitiscost.htm

2) 8 or 9 months before weaning? Every source I can see says 6/8 weeks (http://www.ukagriculture.com/livesto...ing_calves.cfm , http://www.bsas.org.uk/downloads/ann...df2003/112.pdf ), although I can find some sources to suggest that in some cases they are indeed weaned from birth (http://www.factoryfarming.org.uk/beef.html, also http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=556 suggests that most are taken away between 24 - 48 hours of birth)

3)I believe my claims were:
-Male chickens killed shortly after hatching: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling , http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_273652.html (this wepage has proof of the process of maceration, that is being ground up alive)
-Force molting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_molting
-Killed at 18 months old: http://www.animalprotectionparty.com/index.php?id=12 , http://www.ciwf.org.uk/farm_animals/...s/default.aspx .

[Bella_trixxx]

(Original post by callum9999)
That's one thing I've never understood. You just made a very compelling argument about the sheer level of cruelty that involves, but you have no desire to change peoples opinion on the matter (in person I understand, but anonymously on the internet when people can easily just ignore you if they were that bothered by it?)? Unless you don't actually care about it yourself, surely you should want to change peoples opinion?

Well, let's just say I would like people to know the facts and be able to make their own mind up for themselves. The amount of hate I've had since going vegan has been astonishing, almost all from people who assume I'm always judging them for what they eat and suddenly become defensive about it, so I'm always careful to make sure I don't come across as preachy or morally superior or anything. In my experience, actively trying to change someone's opinion never turns out the way you want it to (people just get grumpy that you're interfering in their lives, and with good reason, to be fair), but the amount of ignorance about cruelty in the dairy and egg industries is vast, and that's something I'd like to remedy. If more people know the facts, more people will be tempted to consider a vegan diet, and without me having to physically change their opinion :P

[claraclaraclara]

(Original post by Bella_trixxx)
The meat industry, humane? Ahahaha.
On your other point though, many people actually don't know about the cruelty of the dairy and egg industry - I'd say they were easily crueller than the meat industry. Think about it - how can a cow produce milk without being permanently pregnant? And of course once the calves are born they're ripped apart from their mothers immediately to be used for meat, breeding or just killed. That, and the level of negligence and medication in dairy farms is shocking... standard dairy cows are medicated with recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH) to stimulate a much higher than normal milk production. This causes mastitis, an incredibly painful infection of the nipples. (Incidentally, this means that a good amount of the milk you drink contains pus - I can't remember the exact statistics on how much and my computer's being slow, but it's not a pretty thought).
As for eggs, "free range" eggs come from exactly the same hatcheries as battery hens, and cruel processes are used in both. Because only hens are useful to the industry male chickens are killed shortly after hatching, by suffocation or maceration (being crushed and ground up alive). They are also: debeaked with hot bloody blade at one day old, without anesthetic, force molted (intentionally starved to shock the body into another laying cycle), and at only 18 months old, the hens are considered spent (unable to keep laying eggs at a fast enough pace) and are killed by the cheapest means possible.

I really hope that didn't sound preachy, I'm not trying to change anyone's dietary habits but I do think it's important to know what's happened to what you eat and these (and more) are issues of which the public isn't generally aware, even I wasn't aware of the amount of cruelty that goes on in the dairy and egg industries until I was forced to start eating vegan for health reasons a year ago and did a bit of research. All the same, the treatment of animals today is FAR from humane, even in so called "free range" facilities, and there is certainly plenty of point in becoming a vegan.

Hi, I'm a third year Veterinary Medical studen and vegetarian!
It's clear you are opinionated, you should be extremely careful about the points you are making as I seriously doubt they represent the truth and are far from the majority. I know a lot about the dairy industry and Have worked for years with dairy farmers, I have never heard of rGBH being used in daily milk production. Secondly 'pus' in the milk from mastitis? A farmer is legally obliged to dump the milk of a cow with mastitis and the milk is screened by their producer for high somatic cell count, meaning it never gets into human consumption. The majority of what you said on broiler and lyer farming is Extremely exaggerated. I am a huge campaigner of animal welfare however dislike when people amplify the negatives of the minority. Personally, think we have made huge advances with their production in this country. There is always a minority and improvements that can be made but it's not helped by negativity and untruths.

[claraclaraclara]

I would just like to ask how many of you who are really campaigning the brutality of these industry's make the effort to buy free range eggs, milk that is not from a supermarket that charges more for water and good quality brittish meat??

Do you make the effort?

[somethingbeautiful]

(Original post by ChaoticMaster)
Protein. It is essential to our diets and without meat there are very few good sources of it. A good sources of protein is something from which the majority of the calories come from protein. It leaves white meat, fish, egg whites, spinach (you can't eat enough of this alone to get a good amount of protein in your diet) and whey protein. Meat is an essential part of any good diet.

You can get plenty of protein without meat.

[callum9999]

(Original post by Bella_trixxx)
Well, let's just say I would like people to know the facts and be able to make their own mind up for themselves. The amount of hate I've had since going vegan has been astonishing, almost all from people who assume I'm always judging them for what they eat and suddenly become defensive about it, so I'm always careful to make sure I don't come across as preachy or morally superior or anything. In my experience, actively trying to change someone's opinion never turns out the way you want it to (people just get grumpy that you're interfering in their lives, and with good reason, to be fair), but the amount of ignorance about cruelty in the dairy and egg industries is vast, and that's something I'd like to remedy. If more people know the facts, more people will be tempted to consider a vegan diet, and without me having to physically change their opinion :P

I still think that will achieve anything. Though they don't know specifics, the vast majority of people know there are cruel processes involved, but choose to eat it anyway. You'd have to do far more than just tell people facts if you're going to get them to stop!

And I don't think there is "good reason" for people getting annoyed at people being "preachy" about cruelty - we all do that already. I wouldn't inform a child that smashing that dog over the head with a bat is cruel and they should think about whether it's right for them to do it, I'd try and stop it. The same principle surely applies? Though I do know that it's harder in reality because one of them is "out of sight, out of mind". The nationwide furore over putting a cat in a bin the other year being a perfect example - far, far, far worse cruelty happens on our farms everyday!

[Yawë]

(Original post by yun)
i recently watched a very good documentary about this topic. the bottom line was: due to the horrible conditions under which most of the animals that we eat are kept, pumped up on drugs (especially antibiotics), meat is pretty unhealthy. they said that eating more than 300 grams of red meat every week gives you a risk of getting cancer higher than that of a medium smoker.

other than that it illustrated how land is being away from poor people in paraguay by greedy soy farmers who use the space to produce the food for the animals that we eat.

considering the fact that no one in the world would suffer from hunger if all the soy that those animals are fed were given to people all over the world and the high emissions that are caused by cows and sheep, i really don't see any reason to eat meat except that it tastes good, but so do a lot of things

There's a lot of myths and odd statistics in dietetics and nutrition. But to summarise; a large amount of any food can kill you. Red meat is actually very good for you in appropriate amounts (just like alcohol and a number of other "taboo" food/drinks). I seriously doubt that the smoker statistic is valid, and if it is I'd like to see a study as to why that is.

Meat is a good source of a number of vital nutrients, principally protein and fat. Vegetarians have to be a lot more conscientious about their diet to get the balance right (although it is still possible).

The emissions caused by livestock is minuscule in comparison to the main contributing factors such as cars, planes, power stations. And all animals produce greenhouse gases (even squirrels, some birds, most fish).

I do agree about the space issue though, and with a growing population I wonder whether Governments will pick up on this. A feild of [plants] will feed approx 12 times as many people as a feild of [animals]. However, I don't see this coming to the forefront for a while, because too many people in MEDCs (who decide how the land is managed) don't want to give up their preferences in exchange for what the world requires.

Your point about the price of meat vs. price of vegetation for farmers is also a good point; but really in a world driven by profits and money I don't see this being easily resolved

[callum9999]

(Original post by ChaoticMaster)
Protein. It is essential to our diets and without meat there are very few good sources of it. A good sources of protein is something from which the majority of the calories come from protein. It leaves white meat, fish, egg whites, spinach (you can't eat enough of this alone to get a good amount of protein in your diet) and whey protein. Meat is an essential part of any good diet.

Not even remotely true.

It's "essential" for someone who has an unusually active lifestyle who can't be bothered to think too much about what to eat maybe, but not for anyone else...

[loze21]

(Original post by claraclaraclara)
I would just like to ask how many of you who are really campaigning the brutality of these industry's make the effort to buy free range eggs, milk that is not from a supermarket that charges more for water and good quality brittish meat??

Do you make the effort?

Even though I'm vegan, my family are both meat and diary eaters. They even own their own hens and always buy free range. It just seems like the right thing to do, they don't cost much more than battery eggs so I don't see why anyone would choose not to buy them if they had the choice.

[ckingalt]

People have different metabolisms, and different nutritional requirements depending on their different lifestyles, individual physiology and deficiencies. That is obvious.

I point this out because it occurs to me that I have never actually met a vegan who loves and craves meat, but resists their temptations and cravings in the interest of a moral ideal. All vegans I know tend to look upon meat with disgust not for just the concept but for the taste as well.

I suspect that most people who have developed a belief that eating meat is morally reprehensible, are predisposed to a vegetarian lifestyle for reasons of nutritional requirements and personal taste first. Likewise, people like myself who have embrace a lifestyle of eating meat, have done so for the same reasons.

Selecting, obtaining, and consuming food is one of the most basic functions of any animal's survival. No matter how advanced humans become, we are ultimately just really advanced animals. Our natural instinctive requirements will always ultimately win over our ideological considerations. The human race if it survives will probably eventually become herbivores. This will not happen however until we learn to grow and produce food which is more effective at providing sustenance and nutrition to all different types of people. I don't believe we have done that at this current point in time.

If someone wants to be a vegetarian then I fully support them. If someone wants to force everyone to be a vegetarian then they have failed to realize that just because they can thrive on such a diet, does not mean that everyone else can as well.

[Scoobiedoobiedo]

Maybe we should stop eating animals, and start eating vegetarians?

[callum9999]

(Original post by Yawë)
There's a lot of myths and odd statistics in dietetics and nutrition. But to summarise; a large amount of any food can kill you. Red meat is actually very good for you in appropriate amounts (just like alcohol and a number of other "taboo" food/drinks). I seriously doubt that the smoker statistic is valid, and if it is I'd like to see a study as to why that is.

Meat is a good source of a number of vital nutrients, principally protein and fat. Vegetarians have to be a lot more conscientious about their diet to get the balance right (although it is still possible).

The emissions caused by livestock is minuscule in comparison to the main contributing factors such as cars, planes, power stations. And all animals produce greenhouse gases (even squirrels, some birds, most fish).

I do agree about the space issue though, and with a growing population I wonder whether Governments will pick up on this. A feild of [plants] will feed approx 12 times as many people as a feild of [animals]. However, I don't see this coming to the forefront for a while, because too many people in MEDCs (who decide how the land is managed) don't want to give up their preferences in exchange for what the world requires.

Your point about the price of meat vs. price of vegetation for farmers is also a good point; but really in a world driven by profits and money I don't see this being easily resolved

You'd be surprised. I don't know much about the accuracy of the report, but it's been estimated at 9% of CO2, 27% of Methane (20x as potent as CO2) and 65% of Nitrous oxide (300x as potent as CO2). While those figures could be off, it certainly isn't "minuscule" - hence why the likes of the IPCC and UN discuss meat consumption as a major contributor to Global Warming.

And just for comparison, planes are estimated to be responsible for around 5% of global CO2 emissions. Cattle is big business!