[TheJ0ker]

What about all the great reality scenes made by big companies? Who the hell would want to get rid of all that?

[Smack]

(Original post by JPKC)
Well, as you probably can tell, that's an incredibly crude comprehension of my views, which probably explains why you're arguing against some imaginary straw-man in your last post.

I'm evidently not the only person in this thread who is at a loss as to what your point is.

Well that's ultimately meaningless for the two reasons I've already said. Firstly, men make far more money out of pornography than women. Far more. And two, this bears no relation to any point in my argument.

Your argument is really stupid though because men make more money out of most things than women because more men are higher up than women.

The point it shows is that porn is an industry where women can make a lot of money, more than their male counterparts... and why should this bear any relation to your argument given that it wasn't even originally posted in this thread? Am I not allowed to make my own points and state my views in The Bar?

Because it's generally accepted that men watch more porn than women (a survey suggests that young men watch an average of two hours a week, compared to 15 minutes for women).

Yes but how many men watch porn compared to women? I don't know how many men watch porn (although it's probably 100%) but from a quick Google search of "amount of women who watch porn" I got results of around 75%.

Either way this is completely irrelevant because you've failed to explain what relation it has to the point about pornography debasing women, which is - I assume - what you're trying to respond to.

If a lot of women watch porn they obviously do not believe that it debases them.

Simulating sexual assault would, of course, count as abuse.

But a lot of people get off to that (e.g. a lot of girls have rape fantasies) so is it really abuse if all parties consent? Even if it's just a harmless fantasy?

This is the Grandfather of research into the negative effects of abuse pornography; this article (yes, the Guardian. HMD.) sums up the wider appraisal of its consequences.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be reading a whole book nor an almost decade old Guardian article on a Saturday night for an internet debate. Do you have anything more concise? Preferably with statistics since I'm quite numerically minded.

I'd challenge you to find a piece of mainstream media that casts rape in a positive light. If it exists then I'd equally want it removed. Graphic depictions of rape that encourage the person watching to bring themselves to orgasm are far different to things like Crimewatch recreations. The former has a very explicit aspect of positive reinforcement.

Yes but just how commonly available are scenes in porn that actually depict rape in a positive way? How come a bill that was originally intended to ban all commercial porn seems to only focus on the (tiny?) minority of porn that positively depicts sexual abuse of some sort? And how come porn that is freely available on the internet manages to slip through the cracks?

I'd agree with you if "no real harm took place".

What I meant was physical harm against someone's will.

[JPKC]

(Original post by jesusandtequila)
But who exactly is forcing anyone to watch porn?

No-one. The compulsion is entirely psychological. Our sex drive is wired into us, resisting it is near impossible if it exists. Pornography is the easiest means with which to satisfy the drive, and we keep going back to it not out of free will. No. Orgasm is the ultimate form of positive reinforcement. You experience doing something that brings you direct pleasure, it's then practically preordained that you'll repeat doing it if you can. Even if you were aware of the indirect harm the act causes, you're sex drive is strong enough to outweigh any rational considerations in most circumstances. That's how men come to rape women. They don't do it out of any conscious process of reasoned deliberation; the same applies with all sexual actions.

Of course we are all shaped by our experiences but I believe that it should be up to an individual to make those decisions not some 'enlightened ruling class' that seeks to do better (despite not knowing the goals wants dreams and desires of individuals) for those very individuals. But even then, why is it 'good' to share and watch porn, as long as it's not making a profit? Does the Act suddenly become bad just because they stick a couple of adverts on their website that makes them some money? I think not.

Oh, yet more stock outrage. To examine your first sentence, you start by saying "Of course we are all shaped by our experiences" and then "...I believe that it should be up to an individual to make those decisions..." - do those two things really fit together? So... Yes, our actions are determined by our nature which is in turn shaped by our experiences etc., but we should be able to choose what we allow to determine the factors that determine what we choose? That's a fair representation of what you said, right? Of course that makes little sense in relation to things like porn, the effects of which are completely unknown at the point of consumption (and are only verifiable through psychological evaluation - even if the effects are recognisable in behaviour). Porn makes us make bad decisions. Decisions that lead us to involuntarily cause harm. That's not some "ruling class"'s arbitrary judgement, it's entirely scientific.

And removing the profit incentive from porn is an attempt to halt the production of more extreme, abusive pornography. Though I grant that the mechanism in this reading is flawed.

[JPKC]

(Original post by Smack)
I'm evidently not the only person in this thread who is at a loss as to what your point is.

Let that console you.

Your argument is really stupid though because men make more money out of most things than women because more men are higher up than women.

I wonder why. And "really stupid" is a really stupid thing to say, because, well, you've just told me I'm right!

The point it shows is that porn is an industry where women can make a lot of money, more than their male counterparts... and why should this bear any relation to your argument given that it wasn't even originally posted in this thread? Am I not allowed to make my own points and state my views in The Bar?

It wasn't your own point. Two other people had said it prior to you in the Bar in the same hour. And this "porn is an industry where women can make a lot of money" I honestly don't get. Yes, women can make a lot of money, but not in relation to the men who make far more.

Yes but how many men watch porn compared to women? I don't know how many men watch porn (although it's probably 100%) but from a quick Google search of "amount of women who watch porn" I got results of around 75%.

... And? The bottom line is that men use much, much more than women, but women use a little bit. Issue settled.

If a lot of women watch porn they obviously do not believe that it debases them.

I agree, they probably don't. Does that mean it doesn't debase and harm them? Of couse not.

But a lot of people get off to that (e.g. a lot of girls have rape fantasies) so is it really abuse if all parties consent? Even if it's just a harmless fantasy?

What the actual ****.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be reading a whole book nor an almost decade old Guardian article on a Saturday night for an internet debate. Do you have anything more concise? Preferably with statistics since I'm quite numerically minded.

I'm afraid I'm not going to condense decades worth of research into the effects of media into a page, no. Luckily for you this blog post has done a bit.

Yes but just how commonly available are scenes in porn that actually depict rape in a positive way? How come a bill that was originally intended to ban all commercial porn seems to only focus on the (tiny?) minority of porn that positively depicts sexual abuse of some sort? And how come porn that is freely available on the internet manages to slip through the cracks?

All pornography that includes rape for the purpose of stimulating orgasm depicts in in a positive way.

[Mazzini]

[NDGAARONDI]

(Original post by Ferrero Rocher)
Well, fashion industry is heavily influenced by pornography, so it makes more sense to criticise the cause. Sheila Jeffreys particularly focuses on fashion in her book Beauty and Misogyny: Harmful Cultural Practices in the West. Also, The Beauty Myth is a classic one.

Many thanks for your post. I'll look into them and the suggestions on Amazon and see what they say. It appears in the limited time I came across feminist scholarship, there was little representation of anything outside of sex-related issues. I felt the same for economic issues, such as jobs (black feminism in this area is interesting), was underrepresented when performing literature reviews for equality topics. Hopefully I find some coverage of this "men getting ripped" lark too. It's all social conditioning the human body.

[Life_peer]

Ten pages?! Apparently we can always count on porn if we want to attract debaters.

[PierceBrosnan]

(Original post by Life_peer)
Ten pages?! Apparently we can always count on porn if we want to attract debaters.

Mass debaters.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my HTC Wildfire S A510e

[Smack]

(Original post by JPKC)
I wonder why. And "really stupid" is a really stupid thing to say, because, well, you've just told me I'm right!

It's a really stupid way to try and defeat my argument of women earning more than their male counterparts because it's completely irrelevant. Of course men ultimately make more money out of it than women - because more men are in higher up executive positions than women. It's the same in every industry I can think of. What's wrong with that? What does that have to do with individual performers?

It wasn't your own point. Two other people had said it prior to you in the Bar in the same hour. And this "porn is an industry where women can make a lot of money" I honestly don't get. Yes, women can make a lot of money, but not in relation to the men who make far more.

I don't see what's difficult to understand about it to be honest. See above.

... And? The bottom line is that men use much, much more than women, but women use a little bit. Issue settled.

But what evidence do you have to show that men use "much, much more than women"? You mentioned a survey but provided no link to it.

I agree, they probably don't. Does that mean it doesn't debase and harm them? Of couse not.

But who decides whether it debases and harms them? Is it you? If so why do you think you can decide for them what they find debasing and what harms them?

What the actual ****.

You must be pretty out of tune with female sexuality if you do not understand how common it is for girls to fantasize about rape. This from Psychology Today suggests about 40% of women harbour such fantasies. This survey from Ask Men suggests that it's the third most common sexual fantasy in women. Human sexuality is dark and depraved, but there you have it.

I'm afraid I'm not going to condense decades worth of research into the effects of media into a page, no. Luckily for you this blog post has done a bit.

Okay, thank you. I'll go through each point individually.

1) Addiction. We already allow substances and another materials which humans can be addicted to in society such as alcohol. We recognise that while such things can become addictive, the vast majority of users are capable of using them correctly.

2) Porn affects our preconceptions of what women should look like ... but so does the fashion industry, which can be directly attributed to eating disorders and other such illnesses in women. Should we ban fashion?

3) Uh, is that blog really using what one man has said to attack all porn?

4) Just seems to be a large amount of feminist arguments condensed into one point without properly concluding any individual argument.

5) Utter nonsense. Whoever said that obviously does not watch porn, does not see how common and popular amateur material is, does not understand the types of women that men actually fantasize over, what they want.

6) Porn is meant to be a fantasy, not reality, and as such mundane, vanilla sex is never going to be as exciting as our deepest fantasies.

7) No, porn is meant to be something you get off to, not something that accurately describes real world relationships, sex, men or women.

Other comments on that blog post is that it views porn as something men watch to the detriment of women, that numbs us to reality, that changes our view of what real women should look like; not something that many couples actually watch together to enhance their sex lives, nothing something females themselves enjoy en masse.

All pornography that includes rape for the purpose of stimulating orgasm depicts in in a positive way.

I don't think this answers any of my points.

[RoryS]

(Original post by Life_peer)
Ten pages?! Apparently we can always count on porn if we want to attract debaters.

[Metrobeans]

This is in cessation.