[AmyJ]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
Your comparing modern day ethical and moral implications, rather than comparing implications of that time which were none, it doesn't mean it's acceptable to day as things have changed due to maturity levels, back than they would have bodies which wouldn't be seen as a typical 9 year olds of today.. S

[...]

You can also read what I said before that back than young children matured much differently than today, your thinking her as a 9 year old as today's 9 year old, which is far from the truth, as they would a body of a older female of today.

Firstly, do you have any proof to back those claims up?

Secondly, as I've already said and am tired of repeating - physical maturity does not equate to emotional maturity, regardless of age or era. You really are just repeating myths now. How could someone who is *9* understand the mechanics of sex, the reasons for it? They can't. In the same way that someone who is 6 and plays with dolls cannot consent to a marriage. But hey, if they've grown "hair", child marriages are common in their culture and it's for diplomatic reasons, who cares?

I brought rape into the issue because a child cannot consent to sex.
I started my periods at 9, too - and I can guarantee that if a 50 year old man had tried to climb on top of me on the basis of being my "husband", he would be in prison before you could blink.

Only the power of religion could convince an otherwise sane individual into justifying sex with a child, a union with an age difference of over 40 years. Stupefying. As for it not affecting your faith...well, dear God, it would affect mine if my prophet - supposedly the best example to humanity - had married a 6 year old and consummated it as soon as the first menstruation was through. Unbelievable.

[TheGrinningSkull]

(Original post by Sluex)
Too bad there isn't an example of this happening.

Also I would like to add that Sharia will NEVER be fully implemented in the UK, and those who want to find somewhere and try to implement Sharia should try a Muslim country and not a Christian/Atheist country.

That's the only way it can happen really

You can't force other countries and on top of that ones that don't even have a Muslim majority.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Iqbal007)

Islam was the first to introduce the right of women to inheritance, protection, etc

so, you have examined inheritance laws in Rome, Greece, China, Japan, Egypt, etc etc and you have found out that Islam was the first to give women the right of inheritance ?

no, you are just parroting what people say on dawah (Islamic proselytism) forums

check e.g. here for the position of women in ancient Egypt and their right to inheritance

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...ast/womneg.htm

best

[Mortalengines]

(Original post by mariachi)
so, you have examined inheritance laws in Rome, Greece, China, Japan, Egypt, etc etc and you have found out that Islam was the first to give women the right of inheritance ?

no, you are just parroting what people say on dawah (Islamic proselytism) forums

check e.g. here for the position of women in ancient Egypt and their right to inheritance

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...ast/womneg.htm

best

To be fair, I believe he means the first Abrahamic religion. Not the first society.

[Swanbow]

If two Muslims want to resolve a dispute in a non-official court under Sharia law, and so long as it doesn't contradict British law, then quite frankly I don't see what the problem is. Rather like two Christians going to a priest to help solve a minor dispute.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Mortalengines)
To be fair, I believe he means the first Abrahamic religion. Not the first society.

this is not what he wrote

in any case, the discussion is more complex than that

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by mariachi)
so, you have examined inheritance laws in Rome, Greece, China, Japan, Egypt, etc etc and you have found out that Islam was the first to give women the right of inheritance ?

no, you are just parroting what people say on dawah (Islamic proselytism) forums

check e.g. here for the position of women in ancient Egypt and their right to inheritance

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...ast/womneg.htm

best

That's no right to free inheritance, if you bothered to even read it
clearly states that it's up to the husband to do so through a will or adoption, whereas in Islam they get inheritance without someone saying so

[mariachi]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
That's no right to free inheritance, if you bothered to even read it
clearly states that it's up to the husband to do so through a will or adoption, whereas in Islam they get inheritance without someone saying so

No.

You confused inheritance from the woman's parents (which suffered no special limitations) with inheritance from a woman's husband (which was of course influenced by the husband's will) > Adoption was required if a husband wanted to leave more than two-thirds of his estate to his wife.

"An Egyptian woman could acquire possessions in many ways. She could receive it as gifts or as an inheritance from her parents or husband. Or she could receive it from purchases with goods which she earned either through employment, or which she borrowed. A woman had claims to up to one-third of all the community property in her marriage. For example, the property which accrued to her husband and her only after they were married. When a woman brought her own private property to a marriage, ( dowry), it remained hers, even though the husband often had the free use of it. In the event of a divorce her property had to be returned to her, in addition to any divorce settlement that might be stipulated in the original marriage contract.

On the death of a husband the woman inherited two-thirds of their community property, but the other one-third was divided among their children, followed up by the brothers and sisters of the deceased. To circumvent this possibility and to enable his wife to receive either a larger part of the share, or to allow her to dispose of all the property, a husband could do several things etc etc"

So, read carefully before answering.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by mariachi)
No.

You confused inheritance from the woman's parents (which suffered no special limitations) with inheritance from a woman's husband (which was of course influenced by the husband's will) > Adoption was required if a husband wanted to leave more than two-thirds of his estate to his wife.

"An Egyptian woman could acquire possessions in many ways. She could receive it as gifts or as an inheritance from her parents or husband. Or she could receive it from purchases with goods which she earned either through employment, or which she borrowed. A woman had claims to up to one-third of all the community property in her marriage. For example, the property which accrued to her husband and her only after they were married. When a woman brought her own private property to a marriage, ( dowry), it remained hers, even though the husband often had the free use of it. In the event of a divorce her property had to be returned to her, in addition to any divorce settlement that might be stipulated in the original marriage contract.

On the death of a husband the woman inherited two-thirds of their community property, but the other one-third was divided among their children, followed up by the brothers and sisters of the deceased. To circumvent this possibility and to enable his wife to receive either a larger part of the share, or to allow her to dispose of all the property, a husband could do several things etc etc"

So, read carefully before answering.

"In the middle Kingdom, he could draw up an imyt-pr, a "house document," which was a legal unilateral deed for donating property. As a living will, it was made and perhaps executed while the husband was still alive. In this will, the husband would assign what he wished of his private property to his wife."

The inheritance isn't fixed at all, it was upto the husband whether to give anything.

"If there were no children, and the husband did not wish his brothers or sisters to receive two-thirds of the community property, he could legally adopt his wife as his child and heir and bequeath all the property to her. Even if he had other children, he could still adopt his wife, so that as one of his legal offspring, she would receive some of the two-thirds share, in addition to her normal one-third share of the community property. "

Nor is the 2nd part true............so you should read before answering.
As it stipulates that if they had no children and husband didn't wish his brothers and sisters to get the property, but that would require him to adopt his wife.

[mariachi]

(Original post by AmyJ)

Only the power of religion could convince an otherwise sane individual into justifying sex with a child, a union with an age difference of over 40 years. Stupefying. As for it not affecting your faith...well, dear God, it would affect mine if my prophet - supposedly the best example to humanity - had married a 6 year old and consummated it as soon as the first menstruation was through. Unbelievable.

I agree

this thread is a collection of sorry and acrobatic justifications

the point is this : whatever one may think of his personal morality and character, Muhammad's behavior cannot, by any stretch of imagination, be considered as a valid example for today

[OrangeUK]

(Original post by Pinkhead)
First thing I think is 'gtfo'.
It does not belong in the UK or anywhere near here.

This.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
"In the middle Kingdom, he could draw up an imyt-pr, a "house document," which was a legal unilateral deed for donating property. As a living will, it was made and perhaps executed while the husband was still alive. In this will, the husband would assign what he wished of his private property to his wife."

The inheritance isn't fixed at all, it was upto the husband whether to give anything.

"If there were no children, and the husband did not wish his brothers or sisters to receive two-thirds of the community property, he could legally adopt his wife as his child and heir and bequeath all the property to her. Even if he had other children, he could still adopt his wife, so that as one of his legal offspring, she would receive some of the two-thirds share, in addition to her normal one-third share of the community property. "

Nor is the 2nd part true............so you should read before answering.
As it stipulates that if they had no children and husband didn't wish his brothers and sisters to get the property, but that would require him to adopt his wife.

again, you are focussing on the woman's inheritance from her husband (which can be a complex issue, and needed sometimes special provisions in order to increase her share) and you neglect entirely the woman's inheritance from her parents

in any case, this is what you posted :

(Original post by Iqbal007)

Islam was the first to introduce the right of women to inheritance, protection,

which is, as I have indicated, entirely, totally wrong

why do people make such unwarranted blanket statements ?

very simple : they repeat what they have been told, and what they have read on their favorite Islamic propaganda websites

what is however amazing, is the insistence in repeating those platitudes in the face of contradicting evidence

go figure

[mariachi]

as to women and inheritance in ancient Egypt, women could, in fact, even inherit the throne:

"It was not rare for women to gain the throne in Ancient Egypt, as with Hatsepsut, who took the place of her nephew Thutmose III. When Hatsepsut inherited the throne from her late husband and became Pharaoh, her daughter Neferure took on a role that exceeded the normal duties of a royal princess, acquiring a more queenly role.[7] There were also the Cleopatras, of whom the most well-known is Cleopatra VII (69 BCE to 30 BCE), famous for her beauty and her relationships with Julius Caesar and then Marc Antony, the leaders who depended upon her throne.

The women Pharaohs who are most well-known, and of whom historians are most certain, are the following:
Nitocris (Sixth dynasty of Egypt)
Sobekneferu (Twelfth dynasty of Egypt),
Hatsepsut (Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt),
Neferneferuaten (Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt),
Twosret (Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Ancient_Egypt

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by mariachi)
again, you are focussing on the woman's inheritance from her husband (which can be a complex issue, and needed sometimes special provisions in order to increase her share) and you neglect entirely the woman's inheritance from her parents

in any case, this is what you posted :

which is, as I have indicated, entirely, totally wrong

why do people make such unwarranted blanket statements ?

very simple : they repeat what they have been told, and what they have read on their favorite Islamic propaganda websites

what is however amazing, is the insistence in repeating those platitudes in the face of contradicting evidence


You haven't really, reason why, it's simple because women in Islam have inheritance definitely regardless of what her parents say or what her husband says.



go figure

In the case of Egyptians not all Egyptian women received inheritance, it was up to the man of the family to decide whether to give or not,whereas in Islam you have to regardless of what the husband or father thinks.

No where does it state parents inheritance properly, it only gives suggestions that parents or husbands in particular can give as they wish, which has always existed during those times, where the man was always in control of inheritance.

Nor is your evidence contradicting anything from Islam, Islam gave the right to women for inheritance, while your evidence is about how some Egyptian men decided to based on their own views.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
Islam gave the right to women for inheritance,

Did it really? Read the following quotes. Would you call this "having rights"?

Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329)

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311) (See Sura 4:176.)

The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind." (Bukhari)

Another translation of the above verse:
Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women." (Bukhari)

Another translation of the above verse:
Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."

Definition of tilth: tilth (t lth) n. 1. Cultivation of land
Basically, women are compared to land.

You call this having rights?

If yes, your definition of what constitutes a "right" is extremely flawed.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by .eXe)
Did it really? Read the following quotes. Would you call this "having rights"?

Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329)

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311) (See Sura 4:176.)

The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind." (Bukhari)

Another translation of the above verse:
Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women." (Bukhari)

Another translation of the above verse:
Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."

Definition of tilth: tilth (t lth) n. 1. Cultivation of land
Basically, women are compared to land.

You call this having rights?

If yes, your definition of what constitutes a "right" is extremely flawed.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/1105

[.eXe]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/1105

No I don't need you to post a link to some dawah website. You're a muslim...why can't you just tell me what "rights" means?

I asked you a specific question...I don't really care what some random scholar says about equality.

I specifically gave you verses which deal with equality issues in Islam...so give me YOUR interpretation of it, not some random scholar/website because I will just disregard it like you disregard the websites I post.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by .eXe)
No I don't need you to post a link to some dawah website. You're a muslim...why can't you just tell me what "rights" means?

I asked you a specific question...I don't really care what some random scholar says about equality.

I specifically gave you verses which deal with equality issues in Islam...so give me YOUR interpretation of it, not some random scholar/website because I will just disregard it like you disregard the websites I post.

I couldn't care less about you think thats why..... it's also clear that you got that stuff from answeringIslam, without ever going in depth of how Islam sees things. So I linked you that site with deals with the issue, if you aren't going to read it, than it's your issue.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Iqbal007)
I couldn't care less about you think thats why..... it's also clear that you got that stuff from answeringIslam, without ever going in depth of how Islam sees things. So I linked you that site with deals with the issue, if you aren't going to read it, than it's your issue.

Actually no, I got that stuff from my earlier post on this forum when a muslim asked me to provide quotes where women are considered lower than men. I had to search them all using the search engine in Perseveranze's signature.

Check mate.

[Iqbal007]

(Original post by .eXe)
Actually no, I got that stuff from my earlier post on this forum when a muslim asked me to provide quotes where women are considered lower than men. I had to search them all using the search engine in Perseveranze's signature.

Check mate.

How is that checkmate, anyone can do that, quote a few here and there, without providing proper context into the matter, you can't read a book or story with a few lines here and there to get the jist of things.