[I love shopping]

(Original post by Mohamad_Muslim)
>.<

I said I wouldn't want my wife to work, did not say I would force her not to work.


It is there choice, Islam doesn't say lock your wives up, and you don't see Muslim women working at your local mall? or in Factories? or in huge corporations?

Alright, so we agree with each other so what's the problem with Islam?

I said I think it's better for women to play this role or that and men to play this role or that because they were made with the idea of living on earth

Worshiping Allah, doing righteous having children, raising them to worship Allah Subhana Wa ta'la and to test them to understand that life is temporary and that they will return to their lord Allah, and he will judge them on all that they did.

Life isn't the only thing, okay some women want to work some don't in Islam they are given freedom to choose this and Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam because of the corruption since the fall of the Caliph.

So where do we exactly disagree? I live to please my lord so I may enter his Gardens and enjoy Heaven and I try to bring as many human beings I can with me because that is what Allah has obligated on us, to help our brothers and sisters who are astray/misguided find Islam and find him and those who ignore us and turn away, God told us to leave them alone not chop their heads off.

Overall, as a muslim I have to be very kind, smile at everyone. Respect all women, not raise my voice to ANYONE look at the ground and be respectful to women, I have to give of what Allah has given me and I have to truly help make this world a better place for all of mankind.

So, because of this I am really offended when someone insults Islam.

Are you kidding me? You've changed your tune completely since your previous posts. We disagree in a LOT of ways. Here are a few examples:

- To quote you directly "Men are given authority over women.....". I simply will not accept this. There is no logical reason to why this should be the case.

- "They will switch roles but they won't do it as well". Again, I disagree. I do not believe in gender specific roles. People are individuals and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Just as women are intellectually capable of providing for themselves, men are also equally capable of looking after children. We should not underestimate the contributions a father can make to the upbringing of his child. Men are not inherently better providers, and women are not inherently better parents.

- You believe women are unhappy at workplaces because they do not get to spend enough time with their husband or children. This couldn't be far from true. Has it ever occurred to you that some women may actually have ambitions, beyond cooking, cleaning and looking after children? Or that some women are actually passionate about what they do and what to be high achievers in their fields? Furthermore, you could apply the same flawed logic to men. Surely they must be unhappy at work too because they are not able to spend enough time with their wife or children? But you never gave a satisfactory response to that, I'm assuming because there isn't one.

- You say you would rather your wife didn't work, because she would be better at staying at home and looking after children. Firstly, it's not up to you to dictate what another adult should and should not do. Secondly, such expectations create pressure on women to give up their careers entirely. But, even if they are allowed to work, they would still be held primarily responsible for looking after children, preventing them from completely committing to their work. This would ultimately prevent them from reaching their full potential. And, women are obliged to obey their husband, so if he were to forbid her from working, she wouldn't be able to do much about it. If this isn't oppression, then I don't know what is.

I firmly believe that a husband and wife should work together as equals and share all responsibilities, and make decisions together. Neither should be given 'authority' over the other on any matter.

I don't understand why you feel insulted. You can go back and read all my posts, I have not made a single offensive remark. We have a right to question others beliefs. In fact, it was you who attacked me personally and also called another user 'retarded'.

[PandyAndy]

(Original post by Mohamad_Muslim)
First thing first.

When your wife is being immoral disrespectful, teaching the kids disrespect and swearing and etc.

The wife should understand that the husband is displeased, first he talks, then if she persists he stops having sex, etc and the hitting isn't suppose to discipline or w.e it's like to make her understand you are mad/sad and that she is hurting the family these are the steps that are taken before even thinking about divorce (man)

Women on the otherhand, If they are abused or if their husbands don't follow their religion they are allowed to divorce right away but shouldn't go telling everyone my husband did this or does that, just divorce and go her own way (same for the guy, except guys don't gossip that much but still if they do then don't)

There happy?

don't make me smack you! looking at the way your children are raised in the west.

Even though it is against our religion to hit our children SPECIALLY on the face but we aren't allowed to raise our children by harming them..


But in the west, the kids are punks that honestly if they were in a muslim country and spoke with their mother with this tone and style they'd get beat up by the women/men If they did it openly. (even though Islam condones that)

because like the Prophet Mohammad May peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said.


" Heaven is under the feet of all mothers"

I don't care how immoral the wife is, or how she's teaching the kids to disrespect and swear. You DO NOT raise a hand to her. This is something you must not do. If I were to catch you doing this, and you said "Hey Pandy, she was teaching my young son to curse the prophet Muhammed, so it's all fine", it would take all of my restraint not to knock seven bells of **** out of you. First thing I'd do would be dial 999 and get you arrested.

No, not happy. If the husband is abusive and she divorces, I implore her to tell the authorities, lest he continue his abusive streak. She must not, however, spread lies that her husband was abusive if the divorce was merely due to irreconcilable differences.

Haha, the husband restricts sex? Marvelous, let's see how long that lasts. As (generally, not an overall figure) men have the higher sex drive, I'd love to see the woman giving in before the man. Or are Muslim men absolute studs in bed that the women just can't resist?

I honestly don't give two hoots what your prophet said, if he condones the beating of children, he is not someone whom you should follow.

[I love shopping]

(Original post by Issy123)
and you actually think TAPPING somebody is a big deal?

I'm lost for words. I can't believe that you take matters that could potentially be domestic violence so lightly. The fact that you make an extremely sensitive issue sound so comical just goes to show how disrespectful Islamic beliefs are towards women.

Under any circumstances, it is NOT acceptable to hit / tap any human being, let alone your life partner. Like I've said before, marriage is supposed to be based on love, trust and mutual respect. This practice defies all three, and may even go on to instill fear and resentment on the woman's part.

I'm astonished that you, as a woman, think this is okay.

EDIT: In our society, even hitting pets is unacceptable. The way women are controlled and 'taught discipline' in Islam is, frankly, disgraceful. No adult deserves being treated in this manner.

[I love shopping]

(Original post by Mohamad_Muslim)
First thing first.

When your wife is being immoral disrespectful, teaching the kids disrespect and swearing and etc.

The wife should understand that the husband is displeased, first he talks, then if she persists he stops having sex, etc and the hitting isn't suppose to discipline or w.e it's like to make her understand you are mad/sad and that she is hurting the family these are the steps that are taken before even thinking about divorce (man)

Women on the otherhand, If they are abused or if their husbands don't follow their religion they are allowed to divorce right away but shouldn't go telling everyone my husband did this or does that, just divorce and go her own way (same for the guy, except guys don't gossip that much but still if they do then don't)

There happy?

don't make me smack you! looking at the way your children are raised in the west.

Even though it is against our religion to hit our children SPECIALLY on the face but we aren't allowed to raise our children by harming them..


But in the west, the kids are punks that honestly if they were in a muslim country and spoke with their mother with this tone and style they'd get beat up by the women/men If they did it openly. (even though Islam condones that)

because like the Prophet Mohammad May peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said.


" Heaven is under the feet of all mothers"

This is clearly another point we disagree on.

You make it sound like women are the cause of all evil, and men always know best. This is NOT the case.

Domestic violence is no laughing matter. If you loved your wife and had any respect what so ever for her, you would NOT hit her. No matter what you say, this is disrespectful, and completely unacceptable behavior.

You can't have much respect for women, if you expect your wife to just lie there and allow you to discipline her by 'tapping'.

[umarrehman187]

please states verses from the quran where it says we are supposed to degrade woman?

[I love shopping]

(Original post by umarrehman187)
please states verses from the quran where it says we are supposed to degrade woman?

Please read some of the posts in this thread.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Issy123)
and you actually think TAPPING somebody is a big deal?

it is

it is symbolic and humiliating

also, the "tap" is just an interpretation among many - I haven't seen any English translation using "tap" , by the way - could you please indicate one ?

as an example, a couple of the most common translations (written in times when hitting your wife was not yet considered as being totally unacceptable, of course....)

Pickthal : Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


or

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

So, a Muslim reads this, and then he goes off and admonishes his "disobedient" wife, then leaves her alone in her sleeping place, and then he beats her

A tap ?

In reality : revealing 4:34 was a huge error by God; a blunder for which women are still paying the consequences, 1400 years after.

[KentaKobashi]

If Christopher Hitchens said that women are degraded in Islam, then it must be true.

[Mohamad_Muslim]

(Original post by PandyAndy)
I don't care how immoral the wife is, or how she's teaching the kids to disrespect and swear. You DO NOT raise a hand to her. This is something you must not do. If I were to catch you doing this, and you said "Hey Pandy, she was teaching my young son to curse the prophet Muhammed, so it's all fine", it would take all of my restraint not to knock seven bells of **** out of you. First thing I'd do would be dial 999 and get you arrested.

No, not happy. If the husband is abusive and she divorces, I implore her to tell the authorities, lest he continue his abusive streak. She must not, however, spread lies that her husband was abusive if the divorce was merely due to irreconcilable differences.

Haha, the husband restricts sex? Marvelous, let's see how long that lasts. As (generally, not an overall figure) men have the higher sex drive, I'd love to see the woman giving in before the man. Or are Muslim men absolute studs in bed that the women just can't resist?

I honestly don't give two hoots what your prophet said, if he condones the beating of children, he is not someone whom you should follow.

I don't give a crap what you think. and I will do whatever I want and believe whatever I want.

and sorry condone is the wrong word, He says NEVER beat your children not beat your children think I need to learn my english better.

[PandyAndy]

(Original post by Mohamad_Muslim)
I don't give a crap what you think. and I will do whatever I want and believe whatever I want.
and sorry condone is the wrong word, He says NEVER beat your children not beat your children think I need to learn my english better.

You can believe whatever you want,that's your right. Doesn't make it any leas reprehensible though. Hell? I don't believe it exists,but if it does I'll see you down there.

[Brianop]

(Original post by At peace)
This is one BIG thing people hold against Islam. This is one of the, let's say, top ten reasons for people hating Islam. They believe Islam puts the women down. [And I don't even mean the "hijab oppression" blah blah blah by it].

Why? My guess is hate and ignorance coupled with arrogance in some cases. This is how it usually goes (it went something similar to this with me last night)

Non Muslim:
Islam insults women.

Muslim:
No it doesn't.

Non Muslim:
Does so. What is your view on the Islamic concept that a woman is equal to that of a half a man?

Muslim:
Nothing because that is not an Islamic concept. So what is your view on Islamic concept that a father is equal to 1/4th of the mother?

Then the topic is changed (in my case to intelligence and faith and Qur'an), still sticking to Islam insults women and that they are a degree lower than men

----------------------------------------------------------------------
To answer the question some would have:

Q: What is your view on the Islamic concept that a woman is equal to that of a half a man?

It's a husband who is a degree higher than the wife just to have a stable system family with a head of the house who has more responsibility than the others. And this is valid "only" for the husband and wife, not just "any" man-woman.

Are you being a TSR Muslim Apologist?

Please stop that, people are too ignorant to want to have an open mind, there will always be particularly atheists who bash Islam because they try to keep to a stereotype of being this Islam hater as people are in the media.
Their God is their ego.

People have tried to do what you're doing in the past, years ago on this forum, nothing really gets across, what really gets across is a waste of time. You should really just be living your life as a muslim who does 5 time prayer, and think about contributing to dawah with the bigger picture in sight, not through TSR.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by Issy123)
so are you telling me, that you call a TAP on the back beating someone up? As Perserverance said, its hardly something you'd take to the cops.

It's a symbolic use of force. Are you seriously ok with the idea?

[mariachi]

(Original post by Mohamad_Muslim)
I don't give a crap what you think. and I will do whatever I want and believe whatever I want.

hey, that's just fine

may I ask you however : why exactly are you on a discussion forum ?

[KentaKobashi]

Behead those who say Islam is violent!

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by tarekmo)
Bro that concept is just incase of death , Man gets double the women cuz he is responsible on paying on his Sister until she gets married ,Any important thing she needs ,HE must pay it from money he got !! moreover as thread starter said ,Man is the head of the family ,he must pay on the family and women shouldnt be obliged to work !! while women will be paid everything until they get married, Then their husbands (which are brothers in another family) will continue paying...

you a little confused, i wasnt talking about males double inheritance to women in islam
i was referring to womens testimony in legal matters being worth half that of a mans, in islam

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by tarekmo)
Dude Go read Quraan once more as if you have read it !! The ruler of saudi arabia is just hiding behind Islams conccepts. ... His wife is allowed to drive while others are not -and idk who the **** even created driving rule ?!!?! he is said to have the best country, IF you ever go to saudi arabia,,, It has poor people more than any country in the world !!

I never said saudi was good place, in fact its a facist ****hole. but it does follow the quran and principle of sharia far more closely than any other muslim country, especially when it comes to women - it allows beating of women by husbands, which hadith has stated it allows, as well as the various inequalities of female status as have been listed here , in islam.

[MonkeyMan2009]

(Original post by Davij038)
Apart from inequal pay (which I am somewhat sceptical about) how would you say women are degraded in western culture?

not being regarded for their respective talent (be it their intellect, athleticism etc) but more so for their beauty or sexuality... we see it in the media/society on a frequent basis. However, this may not be seen as degrading by those involved but may be seen as "liberating".... it all depends on ones culture and beliefs as to what is degrading and what is truly representative of equality.

[El-Sayyid]

So what is the problem? Islam is a religion of equality. We tolerate blacks and non-arabs in our mosques and for haj. Women of course have 2nd place but are well respected as compared to western countries. You western people are just jealous because your feminist women own you.

[FrigidSymphony]

(Original post by El-Sayyid)
So what is the problem? Islam is a religion of equality. We tolerate blacks and non-arabs in our mosques and for haj. Women of course have 2nd place but are well respected as compared to western countries. You western people are just jealous because your feminist women own you.

Yes, that's EXACTLY the case. We're jealous. Congratulations, you've figured it out.

Idiot.

[I love shopping]

(Original post by El-Sayyid)
So what is the problem? Islam is a religion of equality. We tolerate blacks and non-arabs in our mosques and for haj. Women of course have 2nd place but are well respected as compared to western countries. You western people are just jealous because your feminist women own you.

The bold bits contradict each other.