[cid]

OP i understand your point fully, and it goes for men too, a colleague of mine was struggling to pass his personal fitness test and all he ever went on about was loosing weight.

Oh i can't do weights I'm trying to lose weight
Oh i can only eat 1000 calories a day I'm trying to lose weight
Oh I will only workout in the fat burning zone I'm trying to lose weight


Then he wondered why he did a 12 minute PFT and nearly collapsed when he crossed the finish line, 10.30 being the pass mark, anything over 10 minutes not really being considered respectable.

Your body shape size and weight is not always the best indication of your health.


Also ... the woman of the right has a rockin body in my opinion, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that to me is a beautiful body. Nothing wrong with the woman on the left, but unlike the woman on the right, left lady's body wouldn't turn my head on the street.

In b4 feminists hunt me down and shoot me on my doorstep ... Yes i know its not the goal of every woman to turn my head on the street ...


should be though

[Riku]

I think that while bf% is a much better predictor of health in general (especially for those folks who regularly exercise), BMI’s useful for the extremities. For example, if someone was extremely underweight but relatively lean due to a massive deficit I'd still feel it were a good idea for them to gain weight despite some inevitable gaining fat. Then they could reduce that by gaining muscle once they’d reached a healthier BMI.

In terms of fitness and body composition, your best guide is the mirror, hell no to the scales. In terms of health, not so sure. It's possible to be lean (as opposed to skinny) from a crappy diet that leaves you malnourished if it keeps you at a deficit and is still high-protein, but I wouldn't call that healthy. Likewise someone could eat well but not exercise, they'd be healthy by getting all their necessary macros but not physically fit and thus still have a higher bf%. Also you can be fit but not healthy due to high levels of stress etc.
I definitely feel there’s more to a healthy lifestyle in adolescents and young adults than pure vanity. No good fitting into a size 8 if you’ve failed to respect your body and it’s left you feeling lethargic and so unfit you can’t enjoy it to its full potential-as so many young women end up doing with crash-diets, sadly. At the same time I think there's still a lot of body fascism going on which give people distorted ideas of what is actually good health and fitness. Being healthy and in pretty good shape, and being in athletic condition, are two entirely different kettles of fish.

[Ronove]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Errr are we looking at the same picture?
There certainly isn't a "giant later of fat over everything". Yes she has a little bit more fat on her body, but to say what you did is totally exaggerating it and makes me think there is no wonder why many girls feel so much pressure to be unhealthily thin.

I would certainly call the fat on her hips a giant layer of fat there, if we're granting the idea that she has the overall appearance of being slim. It was mainly aimed at skinny-fat people and those that think that is the goal, not because they're ultimately happy with the shape but because they don't realise there are more changes that can be made than simply losing weight (ie without building muscle).

Many women don't seem to understand that the amount of fat on the hips can be changed dramatically with weight loss/exercise. They seem to think it's just 'their shape', and try to make themselves happy with it.

If the girl in the left is happy, great. If I analyse the fact that she's taken that picture specifically then perhaps she pretty much only stores any significant amount of fat on her hips, in which case she probably looks pretty nice and healthy too overall. I am by no means lean or muscular myself, at least in certain areas (however I am very gradually changing this). The comment wasn't coming from a 'I'm hot, you're not' perspective, if that makes sense.

[McHumpy92]

(Original post by EffieFlowers)
Then you are a ridiculous person. And by the sound of it you'll have a lot to worry about when you hit 40.
If you prioritise health then you'll always be more attractive because health and attractiveness comes hand in hand. That's probably why most girls are turned off my men who pump themselves with steroids. It's not natural or healthy.
I'm sorry but I can't believe you're so vain! Do you have any respect for your body and well being?
Why do you care so much about looking good? Insecure?

Mainly down to competitiveness.

I don't really train for how I look, I mainly train to get faster and stronger, but obviously vanity does come into it. I guess I may be insecure in some ways, but I am pretty damn happy with how I look physically and facially. Would just prefer to look better or more importantly look better than others.

Injuries are part of sport and I want to do strength sports in the future and steroids are just part of that also.

[Intriguing Alias]

(Original post by cid)
OP i understand your point fully, and it goes for men too, a colleague of mine was struggling to pass his personal fitness test and all he ever went on about was loosing weight.

Oh i can't do weights I'm trying to lose weight
Oh i can only eat 1000 calories a day I'm trying to lose weight
Oh I will only workout in the fat burning zone I'm trying to lose weight

That is pretty damn stupid

"I can't do weights, I'm trying to lose weight" is the silliest thing ever. So what if you weigh the same as some fat guy if you're well built and tall?

[McHumpy92]

(Original post by lilabs)
SOME Young people don't care ahout their health, your right there. But an increasing number of us do. Health is a big thing for me. I see It as, if my body is as healthy as I can make It, then my physical appearance is whatever it happens to be. If I was unhappy with the appearance Id try to do more exercise and strength and things, but I wouldn't put my health at risk.

Saying all this I am probably one of the most healthiest people on here, I just get injuries due to sport and plan on taking steroids in the future to become stronger.

[cid]

(Original post by hassi94)
That is pretty damn stupid

"I can't do weights, I'm trying to lose weight" is the silliest thing ever. So what if you weigh the same as some fat guy if you're well built and tall?

Yup and i raised this point to him, but whenever i did he got very touchy, 'uh we can't all be born with mong strength, you can't even run that fast yourself your only just under 10 minutes' etc etc

The difference being he weighed the same as me, i am 6 ft 4 he couldn't have been any taller the 5 10 and maybe shorter, and i could actually pass the most basic of fitness test.

Some people just don't like taking advice, they see it as criticism, this idea that high weight = bad and low weight = good has been so thoroughly engrained into us that even hearing the truth from trained professionals won't change some peoples minds.

[Jimbo1234]

Pretty much, however I think that sadly most girls in the UK would benefit from using scales as they are not skinny fat but just fat.

[McHumpy92]

(Original post by cid)
Yup and i raised this point to him, but whenever i did he got very touchy, 'uh we can't all be born with mong strength, you can't even run that fast yourself your only just under 10 minutes' etc etc

The difference being he weighed the same as me, i am 6 ft 4 he couldn't have been any taller the 5 10 and maybe shorter, and i could actually pass the most basic of fitness test.

Some people just don't like taking advice, they see it as criticism, this idea that high weight = bad and low weight = good has been so thoroughly engrained into us that even hearing the truth from trained professionals won't change some peoples minds.

He would be better losing the weight for fitness, it would become a lot easier to run quick. Then eat properly and train hard when sorted. He probably just left it too late. But there is no point working in fat burning zones etc...he may as well just ate clean and done some hard training.

[bethany18]

(Original post by Ronove)
The point is that most of the reason she has an entirely unmuscular appearance is because there is a giant layer of fat over everything. That would suggest to some that she's holding on to a little more insulation than is necessary, and those people would view her as more attractive if she lost an inch or two of it. I tend to agree, but again it's personal preference, to a degree. However we are way too used to flab in this country so we rush to the front of debates with comments about it being a 'softer' look and using circular logic about it being ok because it's less fat than average... so people don't exercise or control their diets so the average doesn't come down and we all continue to be content with being inactive, not to mention podgy and thus self-conscious when naked.

I agree with some of what you're saying & sometime obese people are defended & use the word "curvy" etc. to make it positive when they are in fact damaging their health.

However, the girl on the left certainly doesn't have a "gaint layer of fat over everything". Women need some body fat in areas such as their hips & bust for fertility purposes but apart from that, people harp on about how more people are becoming obese which is completely true however it is things like this thread that lead to eating disorders when people exagerate how much body fat she has & make out that shes completely unhealthy & shouldn't let her body get in such a state, oh dear thats what media does :/.

Just think back to well anything before the 90's & yes there wasn't as many obese people but people weren't half as obsessed about body image as now.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my HTC Desire

[Ronove]

(Original post by bethany18)
I agree with some of what you're saying & sometime obese people are defended & use the word "curvy" etc. to make it positive when they are in fact damaging their health.

However, the girl on the left certainly doesn't have a "gaint layer of fat over everything". Women need some body fat in areas such as their hips & bust for fertility purposes but apart from that, people harp on about how more people are becoming obese which is completely true however it is things like this thread that lead to eating disorders when people exagerate how much body fat she has & make out that shes completely unhealthy & shouldn't let her body get in such a state, oh dear thats what media does :/.

Just think back to well anything before the 90's & yes there wasn't as many obese people but people weren't half as obsessed about body image as now.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my HTC Desire

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of the 'risk of eating disorder' line; I advocate exercise and a healthier diet in order to reduce body fat and increase muscle definition, however little that may be - many women don't wish to look muscular but still aspire to look like women who have a greater amount of muscle than them, whether or not they realise that it's the muscle mass that's playing a role in making the person look better is another matter. I don't advocate anyone changing their body in a way that would constitute a disorder. I don't think weight loss should occur without exercise and I don't really believe in extensive calorie restriction either. Slowly and surely wins the 'race'. It's about changing your lifestyle and habits to lead to a healthier (and most likely more attractive) person.

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by Ronove)
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of the 'risk of eating disorder' line; I advocate exercise and a healthier diet in order to reduce body fat and increase muscle definition, however little that may be - many women don't wish to look muscular but still aspire to look like women who have a greater amount of muscle than them, whether or not they realise that it's the muscle mass that's playing a role in making the person look better is another matter. I don't advocate anyone changing their body in a way that would constitute a disorder. I don't think weight loss should occur without exercise and I don't really believe in extensive calorie restriction either. Slowly and surely wins the 'race'. It's about changing your lifestyle and habits to lead to a healthier (and most likely more attractive) person.

But surely you must realise that telling people they should lose weight when they really don't need to and saying someone is fat when they really are not are exactly the things that cause eating disorders?

[Holz888]

(Original post by LittleDD)
I've always been below what the BMI chart says what is healthy, always been underweight my how life. But from the age of 12 have had periods every month.

Yeah I know for a lot of girls it stays, but, particularly for athletes who train a lot and have a body fat percentage of 2-10%. Then there's female athlete triad syndrome (disordered eating, amenorrhoea, osteoporosis) which complicates things.
I suppose for people who tend to stay at a low fat % their entire life, their bodies are fine and they get periods, but for those who actively lower their body fat percentage, it becomes more of an issue.

[Ronove]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
But surely you must realise that telling people they should lose weight when they really don't need to and saying someone is fat when they really are not are exactly the things that cause eating disorders?

Nowhere did I say the person should lose weight and nowhere did I call them fat. I talked about the layer of fat on her hips. Are you now going to deny she has fat on her hips? Some people would find her more attractive if she lost some of the fat on her hips. She probably would too, given she's taken the photo pointing it out in the first place. I wouldn't care if she put on 30kg while losing some of that fat. It's got nothing to do with weight. Weight means very little. And if people don't bother reading most of my post and ignore the part about eating healthily and doing exercise and not focusing so much on calorie restriction, they're reading what the want to read and are in deep enough to have the eating disorder in their head already, even if they haven't translated that into unhealthy weight loss. That is not my doing, that is the general ignorance about health and weight that pervades British society.

[Nomes89]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
But surely you must realise that telling people they should lose weight when they really don't need to and saying someone is fat when they really are not are exactly the things that cause eating disorders?

I think the whole point of the thread though is that in order to lose the fat, the girl wouldn't have to lose weight. Girls think to lose their belly and wobbly bits they have to lose weight and this is not necessarily the case, especially with smaller girls like the ones in the OP.

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by Ronove)
Nowhere did I say the person should lose weight and nowhere did I call them fat.

You said that "there is a giant layer of fat over everything". If that is not calling her fat then I don't know what is! And then you went on to say about losing "an inch or two" (thus losing weight).

(Original post by Ronove)
I talked about the layer of fat on her hips. Are you now going to deny she has fat on her hips?

Everybody has fat on their bodies. It is unhealthy not to.

(Original post by Ronove)
Some people would find her more attractive if she lost some of the fat on her hips.

And many people disagree.

(Original post by Ronove)
She probably would too

I think you don't understand the effect the media and society has. She may think that, but that doesn't make it right. People who are anorexic would prefer themselves to be nothing more than bones, yet that is obviously not healthy and not attractive. She may only be happier because that is what society has drummed into her.

(Original post by Ronove)
I wouldn't care if she put on 30kg while losing some of that fat. It's got nothing to do with weight. Weight means very little. And if people don't bother reading most of my post and ignore the part about eating healthily and doing exercise and not focusing so much on calorie restriction, they're reading what the want to read and are in deep enough to have the eating disorder in their head already, even if they haven't translated that into unhealthy weight loss. That is not my doing, that is the general ignorance about health and weight that pervades British society.

But surely you must realise that again, telling someone to lose fat when they are not fat in the first place, is dangerous. How do you know she isn't eating healthily and doing exercise as it is? And at what point do you stop? EVERYONE could eat more healthily and exercise more, but if you are already in decent health, are not fat, and are happy with yourself (although that last point is debatable because of eating disorders and society as many people will NEVER be happy with their bodies), then what exactly is the point?

[WelshBluebird]

(Original post by Nomes89)
I think the whole point of the thread though is that in order to lose the fat, the girl wouldn't have to lose weight. Girls think to lose their belly and wobbly bits they have to lose weight and this is not necessarily the case, especially with smaller girls like the ones in the OP.

But why does the girl have to?
She looks perfectly healthy.
Having some fat is healthy. Its only unhealthy if you have too much of it.
Telling people that they should change their diet and exercise more and lose fat when they don't need to is dangerous, and its why we have people who have eating disorders who will never be happy with themselves.

[Ronove]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
But why does the girl have to?
She looks perfectly healthy.
Having some fat is healthy. Its only unhealthy if you have too much of it.
Telling people that they should change their diet and exercise more and lose fat when they don't need to is dangerous, and its why we have people who have eating disorders who will never be happy with themselves.

I can't be bothered going round in circles with you anymore.

I didn't call her fat, I mentioned the fat on her hips. I did not say or even imply she should get rid of all of it, I talked about reducing it a certain amount. I am fully aware that people, especially women, need a certain amount of fat.

However they most likely (given I can't see if that woman is somehow freakishly skin-and-bone thin elsewhere, though it's unlikely) do not need quite the amount of fat she has, if you think they do you're being ignorant. I only mentioned the idea of shifting some of the hip fat on the basis of the idea that she is unhappy about the amount of fat she has. The amount I'm talking about is probably miniscule in your eyes if you didn't have a before and after picture comparison to see the difference it makes.

However if she is happy, then who cares? She looks relatively slim. If she's doing regular exercise and eating healthily then all the better. If she isn't, she probably should, regardless of whether she wants to maintain the fat or lose it.

[Nomes89]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
But why does the girl have to?
She looks perfectly healthy.
Having some fat is healthy. Its only unhealthy if you have too much of it.
Telling people that they should change their diet and exercise more and lose fat when they don't need to is dangerous, and its why we have people who have eating disorders who will never be happy with themselves.

I didn't say she had to either. But the fact is many girls complain about this bit of fat around the hips and think that they need to lose more weight to get rid of it which is not the case. If anything it is promoting the opposite of a disorder because the OP is saying that girls often don't need to lose as much weight as they themselves think they do.

Girls who look at celebrities with toned midriffs and lean legs thinks it's a matter of losing weight when it isn't - they could be lighter and still never achieve the body they want. If anything it is this type of ignorance which leads to eating disorders because girls think reducing body fat is synonymous with losing weight which it isn't. That's what the OP is showing with his post.

No one is saying girls shouldn't be happier with a bit more fat but the truth is many girls aren't.

[Riku]

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
But why does the girl have to?
She looks perfectly healthy.
Having some fat is healthy. Its only unhealthy if you have too much of it.
Telling people that they should change their diet and exercise more and lose fat when they don't need to is dangerous, and its why we have people who have eating disorders who will never be happy with themselves.

Have to agree that I think some people are missing the point of this.

(Original post by commandant)

If anything it's encouraging taking control of your health the right way, for the right reasons, and that your overall satisfaction with your appearance should be based on how you feel-rather than believing it's something that should only be done for aesthetics and placing your judgment on an arbitrary number. That’s something that I believe in, and the fact it was phrased as an attack on those is also understandable. Thinking you look good because you’re already thin is no excuse for neglecting your own wellbeing, not to mention implies that being thin is the only way to look and feel good which is *******s.
Advocating healthy diet with room for treats in moderation, exercise and a lifestyle which doesn't promote bad habits doesn't need to be seen as inciting an eating disorder. It's what everyone could be doing anyway without even trying. The fact we're all so stressed about the idea of it and overthink it is entirely counterproductive though and leads to many dangerous myths. Walking the dogs=LISS (low intenstity steady state cardio? Sorted! It's a simple first step and yet you think you have to bust your ass off at the gym for three hours one day then sit and watch TV for the rest of the week. If people could stop looking at exercise as a threatening chore for only the purpose of burning calories and started looking at it as a natural daily pleasure that's an end in itself, we'd have solved half the problem.

In the purely physiological sense, the lower the bf% and the higher the lean muscle mass, the healthier you are and the less stressed you’ll feel. That’s why chronic cardio, complete lack of strength training, and a poor diet is actually lethal to our bodies and causes so much inflammation putting us at risk of all sorts of complications-precisely what so many are doing.

Look at that for an idea on body fat percentages.
http://www.healthchecksystems.com/bodyfat.htm

You can see the line for essential body fat is much lower than you might think, and most of us are in either the overweight or the skinny-fat category; particularly those on a crash yo-yo diet. Coincidence? Not really.
Btw I'm not advocating only being in essential fat, that level is usually only reached by athletes in training and those with eating disorders anyway. I am advocating aspiring for the fitness/ acceptable categories as ‘some fat’ (<25% women, <17% and ideally 15% men) because that's just better for your health overall regardless of how you feel and will slash our health epidemic in half.
At no point was it said reducing body fat makes you a better person or anything as bigoted and elitist as that, because it doesn't. The girl on the right looks athletic, the girl on the left looks like the average physical build. I know nothing about them or their diet, exercise, habits besides that. Who knows who's more attractive as a person? I'd go out with either. You can’t tell that from some picture on the Internet, and while some idiots elsewhere would try and argue that you can, I don’t think anyone ever said that or words to that effect on this thread.

Tl;dr ^^ what Nomes said
I don’t think she (the girl on the left as an example of ‘skinny’) ‘has’ to lose fat and she mostc ertainly doesn't need to lose weight), I wouldn’t think less of her for not and wouldn't want her to develop any body image problems or more severe disorders, but physically it’d be inarguably better for her health if she did. So if she was a bit unhappy about that and wantedto, that would be best achieved by her eating slightly more (and more nourishing food) than less, exercising more regularly, and learning effective coping mechanisms for handling stress. The point of the caption was to show building muscle is a far more effectvie and mentally positive means of losing fat than dieting. I think she and everyone else should be encouraged to look after themselves for their better and that of their whole community, and there’s nothing wrong with promoting people to have the best quality of life possible.