[Angry cucumber]

Sorry if I'm not allowed to post on here because I'm not a member of MHoC, however I do know at least something about Dairy farming having worked on one since I was 12

Warning.. EPIC post, it's spoilered because it is very very long!!

(Original post by Smack)
If dairy farmers aren't being given a fair price for their product, why do they sell it? I don't know much about farming...

(Original post by TheCrackInTime)


Can someone who knows anything about farming explain this?

Right guys....

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Why do they sell it? Well it's there livelyhoods, passed on often for generations, it is a rather unique way of life in which work is 24/7 365 and many dairy farmers know little or no different.

Farmers cannot hold on to milk until the price goes up, as you can do with bottled water, oil etc. As milk is perishable, if you hold it in your milk tank too long, it'll go off. As even with refrigeration, milk is a mass of bacteria, prior to pasteurisation. As the vast majority of farms don't have the money for pasteurisation, facilities, they have little choice but to sell it.

Another reason for farmers selling milk, is the unique way (to this country) in which many farms are owned, many are council farms. These farms are owned by local councils and are rented to farmers. (Many of these farms in the past were bought by councils, years ago and then rented back to the people who they bought them off.) There is a contract between the farmer and the council, in which states many things, from amount of rent each year that needs to be paid, guidelines on new buildings and also what animals are to be farmed: including what type of farm it is, ranging from dairy, to beef, to poultry to arable etc. These contracts can be re-negotiated however the process takes time, and is quite confrontational for the farmer; hence is not often done.

Farmers sell their milk by contracts as well, they sell to supermarkets and milk distributors (Dairy Crest, Robert Wisemen etc) the price of milk is set by them, the contracts can't be cancelled without penalty, so farmers are pretty much held by the throat by said companies.

(Original post by jesusandtequila)
This.

If the price is so low that you make a loss, then you shouldn't be a dairy farmer. Do something else.

This is quite a heartless stand point tbh. The average age of a farmer is 57 in this country. Are you trying to tell me that you are going to get a load of 57 year olds to change everything they have known for their entire lifetime? I think the short answer is a no, people are resistant to change.

In addition, farming is not like a normal job, you can't just go "ah well, I'll try something else." Farming, and agriculture as a whole, is very specialized. If a farmer wishes to change what he farms. Many changes have to be made. Including selling of the Dairy herd itself, as Dairy cattle are useless for a Beef suckler herd for instance, as they produce far too much milk, for one, two and often three calves!! They're offspring are also very "bony" in make up and don't put down enough meat, to make them decent eating.

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A Beef Suckler herd, is where calves are born and suckle on their mother until weaning, whilst mostly on pasture. Once the calve is weaned, anywhere from 3 - 10 months old, they are then fattened until 24 - 36 ish months before being slaughtered, or bred from

If you have a lot of time, read the next spoiler.. it isn't truly neccessary, it's just a bit more background information

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Selling the herd in many parts of the country, is a tricky preposition atm, due to Bovine TB. When a farm, has a reactor (a cow tests positive for TB) then that animal is condemned (slaughtered, some compensation is payed but doesn't really cover the full price of the cow), also the whole herd is put on a standstill, in which no cow may come onto or leave the holding, unless they are going for slaughter (whether because of being a reactor, or has been fattened for beef.) This means that the farmer is stuck with his/her herd, until a special TB sale takes place at a cattle market, in which cattle from herds that are down with TB. These sales are rare and the prices for cattle are poor. Hence farmers are reluctant to sell their cattle at them. Once a herd goes down with TB, they are tested every 60 days until they go 2 tests clear. This you might think is ok, frustrating but ok. It is not, as once a herd goes down with the TB, the test that is used (It's a lump test.. I will go into this in detail, if you wish, but this post is already epic, so I won't for the time being,) reduces in the efficiency of detecting TB by 30%. This means that either 30% more cases of TB shall be found than are or 30% less cases of TB shall be found. So a farmer may be stuck with TB and lose cattle to it, even though they don't have it.

Phew.. if your still with me, good going There's more to this post though

Right, so the farmer has managed to dodge TB, sell his herd (I forgot to mention, there is also a glut of dairy cattle currently, so the price of cows is down.. ) and sell his specialsed equipment (milking parlour stuff etc ) and has now brought in his new equipment along with whatever, he has now chosen to farm.

What are the impacts of the reduced numbers of dairy farmers in this country?

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Well, for one the price of milk for the consumer shall rise, but for farmers the price isn't likely to change much, as the milk has to come from elsewhere. As Britain and Ireland are the largest consumers and producers of milk in Western Europe, the milk has to come from a long way away. Eastern Europe or New Zealand (Yes really, we import milk from the other side of the globe.) The milk produced there may or may not be cheaper than ours, however by the time you transport it, thousands of miles it becomes rather more dear.

Reduced dairy cattle in this country, means less Dairy and DairyX calves. This lower quality meat, (as explained above) is much cheaper than ordinary beef and is in large part the cheaper ranges of meat in the supermarkets, fast food restaurants etc. Less "entry level" beef means the price of beef will increase as only more "prime" beef will be available. Also more beef will have to be imported, which is again more expensive. Beef is one of the standards, of farming, if it's price rises, so does the price of all other meat and in addition, cereals.

There are many other effects.. but it's quarter to 2 in the morning... getting tired

This post is nice and cheery isn't it *sarcasm*

Ok so the farmer, has instead given up farming..

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As said above, the average age of a farmer in Britain is 57, when a farmer sells up, it is often the case that a farmer does not buy the farm, (this is the case for council and privately owned farms, as councils often now sell off farms, when a tenant leaves.) Instead property developers buy it and build houses etc on it. This effects small, local communities hard. Farmers and Dairy farmers in particular are stationary by definition. Cows need milked twice a day, everyday!! So the farmers are never far away, meaning that they have a very permanent face and presence in the local community. In a sense helping to bind a community together. Similar to local post offices, shops etc. Removing such a permanent pillar of local society, removes the very fabric of the countryside. It might smell like BS, (excuse the pun) but it is true.

Another effect of removing farmers, is the number of jobs related to them. With large amounts of specialized equipment, comes an array of people, from builders, electricians, farm labourers, "handymen", salesmen etc. This is in addition to vets and so many other jobs (Dairy cattle incidentally, are the largest source of Large Animal work for vets. )

I think that'll do

tl;dr Dairy farming is in crisis, if prices don't improve, we'll all be effected in one way or another. Vote YES!!

I apologise to the people I quoted.. I went a bit OTT.

Any questions, on what I've written I'll be happy to answer

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If you understand everything, I've written above, you could probably do well at a Vet Med interview

[TheCrackInTime]

(Original post by Angry cucumber)
x

Thanks for this, I'll have a proper read through it tomorrow.

[Lady Maleficent]

Who even drinks milk anymore lol?

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Do you come from Scotland or do you just live there? if you come from Scotland I am shocked you don't understand agriculture.

I was born in the West Country and brought up in Scotland and I don't know a ****ing thing about agriculture.

As for this motion, I am against protectionist measures or any form of farming subsidy.

[Mazzini]

(Original post by Lady Maleficent)
Who even drinks milk anymore lol?

You don't have to necessarily drink milk to use it. You put it on cereal, in tea/coffee and in cake mixture. It's also used in making butter, margarine, cheese, cream, yoghurt and ice cream.

[xXedixXx]

Add a full stop on the end and I'll vote aye.

[eff01]

During this economic uncertainty, safeguards need to placed to make sure this fair price doesn't lead to an increase in Milk prices. If assurances can be made that this will not happen, then I am happy to vote aye. What will the new fair price roughly be?

[jesusandtequila]

(Original post by Angry cucumber)
This is quite a heartless stand point tbh. The average age of a farmer is 57 in this country. Are you trying to tell me that you are going to get a load of 57 year olds to change everything they have known for their entire lifetime? I think the short answer is a no, people are resistant to change.

So, people are resistant to change but it doesn't mean we shouldn't. I think it's heartless to force people to subsidise this, by taking their money with the threat of violence behind it. This is what subsidies really are. Other people's money.

In addition, farming is not like a normal job, you can't just go "ah well, I'll try something else." Farming, and agriculture as a whole, is very specialized. If a farmer wishes to change what he farms. Many changes have to be made. Including selling of the Dairy herd itself, as Dairy cattle are useless for a Beef suckler herd for instance, as they produce far too much milk, for one, two and often three calves!! They're offspring are also very "bony" in make up and don't put down enough meat, to make them decent eating.

Your argument seems to be that because it'll be a pain in the arse to change, so let's keep subsidising a loss-making industry (that is, one that isn't producing the things that people want at the price they are willing to pay). I don't think that's right. I don't think we should be propping them up, and if they need to change what they farm in response to consumers not wanting what they currently farm at the current price, then that's a good, not a bad thing.

What are the impacts of the reduced numbers of dairy farmers in this country?

Well, for one the price of milk for the consumer shall rise, but for farmers the price isn't likely to change much, as the milk has to come from elsewhere. As Britain and Ireland are the largest consumers and producers of milk in Western Europe, the milk has to come from a long way away. Eastern Europe or New Zealand (Yes really, we import milk from the other side of the globe.) The milk produced there may or may not be cheaper than ours, however by the time you transport it, thousands of miles it becomes rather more dear.

So? So if it's more expensive to import it then supermarkets won't import it, they'll buy off British farmers. If here is truly cheaper (after transport costs), then supermarkets will have to pay a higher price for milk to farmers, as we constantly nudge the market towards what would be equilibrium. At the moment, we're well oversupplied, which is why these farmers make a loss.

Reduced dairy cattle in this country, means less Dairy and DairyX calves. This lower quality meat, (as explained above) is much cheaper than ordinary beef and is in large part the cheaper ranges of meat in the supermarkets, fast food restaurants etc. Less "entry level" beef means the price of beef will increase as only more "prime" beef will be available. Also more beef will have to be imported, which is again more expensive. Beef is one of the standards, of farming, if it's price rises, so does the price of all other meat and in addition, cereals.

It depends what they choose to farm instead of dairy cattle, and how much of an effect British dairy farming has on the world price. I think that if you farm other meat or cereals instead of dairy farming (and it might well be a different individual farmer on the same plot after one goes out of business), then you'd see the prices of them come down, not go up. Oh, and also British farming is tiny, and the effect on world prices is negligible.

Even then, it misses the wider point. That prices are a signal - if the price of x goes up it's a signal for farmers to produce more of it, and likewise if the price of y goes down, then it's a signal to produce less. Luckily, the signal also acts as an incentive. I don't see that government needs to step in here, but we just need to let the price mechanism work.

Ok so the farmer, has instead given up farming..

As said above, the average age of a farmer in Britain is 57, when a farmer sells up, it is often the case that a farmer does not buy the farm, (this is the case for council and privately owned farms, as councils often now sell off farms, when a tenant leaves.) Instead property developers buy it and build houses etc on it. This effects small, local communities hard. Farmers and Dairy farmers in particular are stationary by definition. Cows need milked twice a day, everyday!! So the farmers are never far away, meaning that they have a very permanent face and presence in the local community. In a sense helping to bind a community together. Similar to local post offices, shops etc. Removing such a permanent pillar of local society, removes the very fabric of the countryside. It might smell like BS, (excuse the pun) but it is true.

So with a housing shortage in the UK, building more houses is met because some people will miss the neighbour? And hang on, if houses are built there, won't it cease to be countryside? Furthermore, what about planning permission? Whether the council should sell it off or not is a completely separate issue to whether we should be stealing to support an industry that can't produce the things people want at the right prices.

Another effect of removing farmers, is the number of jobs related to them. With large amounts of specialized equipment, comes an array of people, from builders, electricians, farm labourers, "handymen", salesmen etc. This is in addition to vets and so many other jobs (Dairy cattle incidentally, are the largest source of Large Animal work for vets. )

Yeah, and it's not going to be replaced with just empty land, but with something that is more productive and ties in more with the preferences of the people - that is, something that doesn't make a loss. This might be different farming or anything else, which also produces jobs. So does not taking money to subsidise, since people spend that money on other things, and creates dispersed jobs elsewhere. We should not focus on the seen and ignore the unseen.

[Mechie]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Do you come from Scotland or do you just live there? if you come from Scotland I am shocked you don't understand agriculture.

Erm, Scotland isn't just a sparsely populated place with farmland all over it by the way. I don't know a thing about agriculture, but why should I? None of my family or friends are farmers (except one person I know, but I don't just ask her about her dad's farm...) so why should I have any reason to know about agriculture?

[JPKC]

Aye.

[tehFrance]

The lack of knowledge of the agricultural industry astounds me but no more than the fact you all seem to want to see farms close and have houses built on them. You don't understand the industry at all and what to ruin the countryside by building houses... I can most certainly see why the industry is in distress with all you city people being completely ignorant to one of the longest standing industries in the country.

If you want cheap **** that comes from Africa or China then go ahead import it however you will be doing more harm than good just to save a few pennies... which is all it really is, pennies.

[jesusandtequila]

(Original post by tehFrance)
The lack of knowledge of the agricultural industry astounds me but no more than the fact you all seem to want to see farms close and have houses built on them. You don't understand the industry at all and what to ruin the countryside by building houses... I can most certainly see why the industry is in distress with all you city people being completely ignorant to one of the longest standing industries in the country.

If you want cheap **** that comes from Africa or China then go ahead import it however you will be doing more harm than good just to save a few pennies... which is all it really is, pennies.

Yeah, it's obviously because we want the whole place plastered in houses. Not because we don't believe that the price mechanism works and subsidising a loss-making industry isn't a good thing. I thought you'd be able to comprehend that, or shall we subsidise everything that has been 'long-standing'? It's about letting prices work and if people wish to pay the higher prices for food produced here, fine. But we shouldn't steal to pay people who aren't adding value.

[Norton1]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Do you come from Scotland or do you just live there? if you come from Scotland I am shocked you don't understand agriculture.

I live in a relatively rural part of Scotland. I have literally no knowledge of or interest in farming.

[Hopple]

Sounds like the farmers need a union? Not that I'm a great fan of them, but if there was ever a justification for a union, then being forced to accept a loss is it.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Hopple)
Sounds like the farmers need a union?

They have a union, it is the NFU but like most unions... it is a failure. If there was ever a group that deserves more money for the work they do, it is farmers yet it is not being given to them

[Hopple]

(Original post by tehFrance)
They have a union, it is the NFU but like most unions... it is a failure. If there was ever a group that deserves more money for the work they do, it is farmers yet it is not being given to them

They should have a better union then I did hear they threatened to pour milk away in protest, but really they could have all refused to sell their milk? Unless they were just about to retire, nobody wants to sell stuff at a loss.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Hopple)
They should have a better union then I did hear they threatened to pour milk away in protest, but really they could have all refused to sell their milk? Unless they were just about to retire, nobody wants to sell stuff at a loss.

No, they should have more rights as unlike other unions that are normally against the government... the NFU are generally against corporations that are taking advantage... the NFU is the only union I would consider giving more rights to screw over my beloved corporations so that they get a fairer price for their products.

Refusing to sell milk and pouring away is the same thing as it would have to be gotten rid of if they did not sell it.

[RoryS]

Aye - fair prices to all labourers, if they do a good job.

[jesusandtequila]

(Original post by RoryS)
Aye - fair prices to all labourers, if they do a good job.

What about the labourers outside Britain?

[Observatory]

I'm amazed all the socialists and labourites at least want to increase the price of milk. You are literally taking food from the mouth of the poor to pay more money to land-owners!

Can we get a chorus of 'Maggie Thatcher, milk snatcher!' going in this thread?