[Observatory]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
No love, it's a job. People take pride in their work. I'm sorry that it doesn't translate into £ s and d but I'm sure you'll cope. If not, the NHS is there to help you.

A job is work that makes you a living, not just any task that requires time and effort over an extended period. Otherwise building match-stick scale models of the Eiffel tower would be a job, rather than a hobby. Apparently dairy farming does not make a living, so it's a hobby.

[D.R.E]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
But as I said earlier, the major reason why dairy farming isn't profitable any longer is because of the exploitative energy prices we have in GB. They carry on because of the pride they take in farming but it is clearly against the greed of energy capitalists. Deal with them and farmers will have less of a raw deal. No need for your kind of attitude or the worse one of your lover down below!

Well yeah, that may or may not be the case but this particular motion does not address what you cite as being the problem. All it does is inflate prices further, which would affect everyone, in general as the increase in milk prices may not necessarily mitigated by a correspondent increases in income (sticky wages and all that lark). And even if it was, that would be worse for everyone.

If you want to talk about energy prices, talk about energy prices. Fixing prices for farmers is not a solution.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by D.R.E)
Well yeah, that may or may not be the case but this particular motion does not address what you cite as being the problem. All it does is inflate prices further, which would affect everyone, in general as the increase in milk prices may not necessarily mitigated by a correspondent increases in income (sticky wages and all that lark). And even if it was, that would be worse for everyone.

If you want to talk about energy prices, talk about energy prices. Fixing prices for farmers is not a solution.

This isn't my motion. I started in here by talking to J+T about energy costs so that is where I come from. What this motion does or does not do is of little interest to me.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Observatory)
A job is work that makes you a living, not just any task that requires time and effort over an extended period. Otherwise building match-stick scale models of the Eiffel tower would be a job, rather than a hobby. Apparently dairy farming does not make a living, so it's a hobby.

You sir, are a waste of energy.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Observatory)
A job is work that makes you a living, not just any task that requires time and effort over an extended period. Otherwise building match-stick scale models of the Eiffel tower would be a job, rather than a hobby. Apparently dairy farming does not make a living, so it's a hobby.

Are you really this stupid or are you trolling?

[PierceBrosnan]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Do you come from Scotland or do you just live there? if you come from Scotland I am shocked you don't understand agriculture.

Farmers sell it because it is needed however supermarkets and big corporations are not giving them the true value for the milk and thus is being underpaid. Many farms are closing down or switching to more profitable areas in agriculture but unfortunately in this country, they are far and few between.

Personally I support anything that gives farmers a fair price for their produce, I don't want so cheap food that is not up to standard and I am willing to pay more for high quality, well grown, local produce.

In my role of DEFRA I have looked into making it easier for farmers however the cost is too substantial in this country for the government to help properly which is a shame otherwise I would of brought a lot of bills to the house with the aim of helping the agricultural industry that is under an ever increasing threat from the 3rd world, I personally do not care about 3rd world produce as quite frankly it is harmful to the environment in so many ways... especially in the journey to get the food to the UK.

See above, if you need more detail ask.

I'm with TehFrance on this one. Aye.

[D.R.E]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
This isn't my motion. I started in here by talking to J+T about energy costs so that is where I come from. What this motion does or does not do is of little interest to me.

Fair enough.

[Observatory]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Are you really this stupid or are you trolling?

What's so stupid?

Imagine a world in which hand-built matchstick models of the Eiffel Tower were the height of civilised taste - in that case that would for sure be a job. Now imagine a world where milk can be produced economically in the UK - I am not convinced this is not the case now, but supposing it is - in that case dairy farming would be a job.

If you can only produce something much more expensively than someone else can, or so expensively it's not worth buying to the consumer, than producing it is wasteful and you are harming others by forcing them to pay for you to do so. In this case the proposal is particularly repugnant because rather than just forcing the rich to pay for it, you're increasing the price of a basic source of nutrition, hitting the poor hardest.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Observatory)
What's so stupid?

Imagine a world in which hand-built matchstick models of the Eiffel Tower were the height of civilised taste - in that case that would for sure be a job. Now imagine a world where milk can be produced economically in the UK - I am not convinced this is not the case now, but supposing it is - in that case dairy farming would be a job.

If you can only produce something much more expensively than someone else can, or so expensively it's not worth buying to the consumer, than producing it is wasteful and you are harming others by forcing them to pay for you to do so. In this case the proposal is particularly repugnant because rather than just forcing the rich to pay for it, you're increasing the price of a basic source of nutrition, hitting the poor hardest.

You comparison of farming to match stick buildings is what is stupid.

Dairy farming can be produced economically in this country if corners are cut like they are in 3rd world countries. Do I want milk or food from farmers that cut corners? no I do not.

So milk is not worth the few extra pennies to the consumer? I swear the people in this house are so up their own rear ends that they cannot see that putting fellow countrymen into poverty over a couple of pence is a good thing.

To all those that want 3rd world milk... how are you going to get it here before it perishes? do you know how much it will cost to get here and the affect on the environment? I would bet my châteaux on it being more expensive and a huge waste of time and effort.

As for hitting the poor the hardest... food prices are the least of people's worries when it comes to expenses, a lot of things are more expensive that people buy and they don't need. If people that are poor learnt not to spend on things they don't need, they could live better.

God this infuriates me.

[jesusandtequila]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Dairy farming can be produced economically in this country if corners are cut like they are in 3rd world countries. Do I want milk or food from farmers that cut corners? no I do not.

So milk is not worth the few extra pennies to the consumer? I swear the people in this house are so up their own rear ends that they cannot see that putting fellow countrymen into poverty over a couple of pence is a good thing.

To all those that want 3rd world milk... how are you going to get it here before it perishes? do you know how much it will cost to get here and the affect on the environment? I would bet my châteaux on it being more expensive and a huge waste of time and effort.

As for hitting the poor the hardest... food prices are the least of people's worries when it comes to expenses, a lot of things are more expensive that people buy and they don't need. If people that are poor learnt not to spend on things they don't need, they could live better.

God this infuriates me.

JESUS CHRIST DO YOU EVEN READ?

If indeed everyone was willing to pay a few more pennies for 'FairMilk', then start a company, buy milk off farmers at a higher price (that should be easy enough), bottle it and sell it to the public, passing on that extra cost. Anyone can do this. You'd save the farmers and make a nice profit for yourself. Either that, or the public actually aren't willing to pay and they aren't adding value. Take yer pick.

Okay, so don't buy imported food. Why do you wish to make everyone else pay for this preference? I merely think that if it costs more here, then okay - sell British food at the price you can, and people can sell imported stuff cheaper if it is so cheaper and let people pick whichever one they want.

We're not trying to force anyone to drink 3rd world milk. We're not asking you to eat stuff where they cut corners. We're not even claiming it'd be cheaper from 3rd world countries. We're just saying that we shouldn't force people to pay for something just because it's making a loss. If it needs a higher price to be profitable, then why the **** don't the people making this stuff charge a higher price?

[Observatory]

(Original post by tehFrance)
You comparison of farming to match stick buildings is what is stupid.

Why? Because lots of people have an emotional attachment to farming but not to matchstick building-making?

People used to have all sorts of jobs that don't exist anymore. Rope making, barrel hooping, maintaining horses and building sail ships. All of these were once huge industries, but today by far the most common reason reason people keep horses or sailing boats is as a hobby.

Dairy farming can be produced economically in this country if corners are cut like they are in 3rd world countries. Do I want milk or food from farmers that cut corners? no I do not.

So milk is not worth the few extra pennies to the consumer?

If it's worth it they'll pay it voluntarily. Personally I drink milk every day; I buy the cheapest fresh whole milk I can find, because after trying more expensive brands, I've never noticed a difference in taste, and I've never been poisoned (or whatever you are implying with cut corners) by milk, or any food bought in this country for that matter!

I swear the people in this house are so up their own rear ends that they cannot see that putting fellow countrymen into poverty over a couple of pence is a good thing.

No, the people up their rear ends are the people who want Mrs Smith the cleaner to pay 20% more to put milk in her 3 kids so that a fat old landowner in Surrey can continue to pretend he's a 19th century squire for a few more years.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by jesusandtequila)
JESUS CHRIST DO YOU EVEN READ?

If indeed everyone was willing to pay a few more pennies for 'FairMilk', then start a company, buy milk off farmers at a higher price (that should be easy enough), bottle it and sell it to the public, passing on that extra cost. Anyone can do this. You'd save the farmers and make a nice profit for yourself. Either that, or the public actually aren't willing to pay and they aren't adding value. Take yer pick.

Okay, so don't buy imported food. Why do you wish to make everyone else pay for this preference? I merely think that if it costs more here, then okay - sell British food at the price you can, and people can sell imported stuff cheaper if it is so cheaper and let people pick whichever one they want.

We're not trying to force anyone to drink 3rd world milk. We're not asking you to eat stuff where they cut corners. We're not even claiming it'd be cheaper from 3rd world countries. We're just saying that we shouldn't force people to pay for something just because it's making a loss. If it needs a higher price to be profitable, then why the **** don't the people making this stuff charge a higher price?

JESUS CHRIST I DO!!!!

You have heard of farm shops right? it is already done and they are successful. You just don't see anyone on JSA in those shops... and quite rightly so tbh.

Why because I believe in supporting the local economy not the economy of some country I don't care for and I believe everyone should do the same... I am French, we are protectionist by nature.

I don't think that we should force the farmers to accept the loss and then go out of business, I'd rather force people to pay the pennies extra than see farmers in this country go out of work just so some 3rd world cutting corners farmer can thrive. I care just as much about the environment as I do the local economy and outsourcing to the 3rd world will be a disaster environmentally.

Also we need to legalise GM Foods ASAP, it will bring yields up, lower costs and feed more people... but the idiots that are the public don't understand this and quite frankly as they are so stupid deserve to suffer in their own ignorance to something that could help solve world hunger.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Observatory)
Why? Because lots of people have an emotional attachment to farming but not to matchstick building-making?

People used to have all sorts of jobs that don't exist anymore. Rope making, barrel hooping, maintaining horses and building sail ships. All of these were once huge industries, but today by far the most common reason reason people keep horses or sailing boats is as a hobby.

If it's worth it they'll pay it voluntarily. Personally I drink milk every day; I buy the cheapest fresh whole milk I can find, because after trying more expensive brands, I've never noticed a difference in taste, and I've never been poisoned (or whatever you are implying with cut corners) by milk, or any food bought in this country for that matter!

No, the people up their rear ends are the people who want Mrs Smith the cleaner to pay 20% more to put milk in her 3 kids so that a fat old landowner in Surrey can continue to pretend he's a 19th century squire for a few more years.

Farming isn't just an emotional attachment... you really know nothing about the industry don't you?

What are you on about 'maintaining horses and building sail ships' are still decent sized industries... ship building though is in general is down in this country but up in other countries in Europe.

They won't if large corporations keep trying to increase their profit margins by forcing a lower price on farmers. You wouldn't even need to pass the cost on really, supermarkets can take the small hit but they won't as the profits must go up!

Mrs Smith the cleaner should not have three children for a start if she is struggling to pay the bills. She should also look at her other expediters as no doubt they have the latest gadgets and Sky TV as well which are not needed. Poor people spend more on crap than anyone else and they wonder why they are poor, they deserve it tbh.

[D.R.E]

(Original post by tehFrance)

...I am French, we are protectionist by nature.

Oh really?

[Observatory]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Mrs Smith the cleaner should not have three children for a start if she is struggling to pay the bills. She should also look at her other expediters as no doubt they have the latest gadgets and Sky TV as well which are not needed. Poor people spend more on crap than anyone else and they wonder why they are poor, they deserve it tbh.

Why the hell should people have to plan their families and defer luxuries to keep a bunch of ineffective businessmen going? The way you are put their case farmers seem more like misanthropic parasites than hobbyists.

[Ysolt]

We should focus on keeping production of food as close to the customers as possible, so I agree with this motion.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Observatory)
Why the hell should people have to plan their families and defer luxuries to keep a bunch of ineffective businessmen going? The way you are put their case farmers seem more like misanthropic parasites than hobbyists.

Why? because they overspend on crap, I know several people that are not as wealthy as I and they spend money like it is water and they have none. Obviously I am generalising but the poor really do bring it on themselves when they take part in 'Keeping Up with the Joneses' as they cannot afford to do so.

If they cut out non-essential items, they'd find they can live much easier and most likely equally or more fulfilling lifestyles.

And for the last ****ing time, being a farmer is NOT A ****ING HOBBY YOU MORON!

[Smack]

If one of the reasons that milk is expensive to produce in the UK is because of high energy costs, then surely it's better off being produced somewhere else where they can produce it without requiring much energy, and hence for cheaper. Why should the public be charged extra for their milk so that more energy can be wasted producing it? It's not sustainable.

[Observatory]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Why? because they overspend on crap, I know several people that are not as wealthy as I and they spend money like it is water and they have none. Obviously I am generalising but the poor really do bring it on themselves when they take part in 'Keeping Up with the Joneses' as they cannot afford to do so.

If they cut out non-essential items, they'd find they can live much easier and most likely equally or more fulfilling lifestyles.

And for the last ****ing time, being a farmer is NOT A ****ING HOBBY YOU MORON!

^ Just to say, socialists and labour, this is what you're supporting here. "**** the poor and their children: landowners are more deserving."

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Observatory)
^ Just to say, socialists and labour, this is what you're supporting here. "**** the poor and their children: landowners are more deserving."

Do you think I am a lefty? I am a wealthy Conservative... please don't associate me with the left. Also that is not what I am saying, I am saying they should learn to control their spending, if they continue to spend on non-essential items more than essential items then quite frankly they do deserve to struggle, if they only buy essential items and still struggle then I don't mind helping those people out with government support. Those that squander should get nothing.