[@Sam]

If UKIP are smart then winning seats under FPTP is not too hard, the problem that they found in 2010 was the focus on the national level politicians such as Nigel who were in seats where they never realistically stood a chance of winning. Considering that their primary core voter base is generally older individuals, although the youth are now making up a larger bloc, a few carefully targeted seats could be won by people willing to represent their constituencies. Cover some local issues with the work being fed in from their Councillors and they should not find it hard to expand upon their traditional voter base who are generally more locally focused as opposed to the middle-age demographics who tend to go towards national figures.

Needless to say I would be very surprised if the status quo remains if there was not a UKIP MP after the next election. Even if their support is widely divided there will always be somewhere they can pick up a vote.

[Tamora]

(Original post by ApresAlkan)
HMCS

I only referenced AV because it is more democratic than our own parliamentary elections to some extent. Why isn't a real democracy possible? I can conceive of such a thing, especially as national governments exist also.

UN Declaration of Human Rights suits 7 billion people living in areas more diverse than Europe. I think that things which the EU deals with are generally fine to keep constant throughout the continent. Some things I disagree with, such as punishing holocaust denial. As Christopher Hitchens said, those who disagree with consensus should have their views amplified, not quenched.

Oh, the irony of an EU supporter being concerned with democracy! What you can conceive is irrelevant. It's what the EU and its leaders (including ours) can conceive of that's the issue. It was was never meant to be a democracy and it shows no signs of setting itself on the path towards it. The people of Europe need to be able to effect changes in policies when they vote in order for Europe to be a true democracy and that's what they can't do. And what's the point of national governments when they have such little power to act unilaterally?

Perhaps there is nothing objectionable in the UN Declaration and it could be said to be above politics? As well as that the UN is not an organisation with a huge body of law dealing with just about every area of national policy that it can impose on its members as the EU is? The UN can't even enforce the declaration itself, so to say it "suits" 7 billion people is a bit of stretch!

I don't know what HMCS stands for in this context.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Hewitt)
The reality is there is no point in UKIP. All it takes is a more eurosceptic Conservative leader then UKIP will lose most of their support.

A million votes at the General Election says there's a point in UKIP. A more eurosceptic Conservative leader, should one appear, might be enough to tempt some UKIP supporters, but a faux eurosceptic will soon be found out.

The two parties have very different policies.

[madders94]

(Original post by Rakas21)
In the 2010 Ukip manifesto the commitment to a referendum on capital punishment was made. Given that Ukip is full of social conservatives (never understood why people on here reckon your Libertarians) it is logical to assume that your party as a whole would be arguing for a Yes.

GSTQ?

I'm a member of UKIP and I don't support the return of the death penalty, but I support the idea of a referendum (not that I remember seeing one in the 2010 manifesto). I support the idea of the general public having as big a say as possible in what happens in their country.

[Will Lucky]

(Original post by Tamora)
A million votes at the General Election says there's a point in UKIP. A more eurosceptic Conservative leader, should one appear, might be enough to tempt some UKIP supporters, but a faux eurosceptic will soon be found out.

The two parties have very different policies.

At this rate whoever succeeds Cameron if he goes onto 2015 will probably be the biggest Eurosceptic we have had leading us. Most of the 2010 intake are not exactly Europhile thats for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if we put a pledge for it in the 2015 manifesto either as a last grasp at a second term, not to mention the rebels in the party could argue theoretically that by 2015 the economic problems are not stopping a real debate now which is what the Cameron wing has said about it in the past. I may be in favour of the EU, but I'd still vote if such a pledge was given.

[Hewitt]

(Original post by Tamora)
A million votes at the General Election says there's a point in UKIP. A more eurosceptic Conservative leader, should one appear, might be enough to tempt some UKIP supporters, but a faux eurosceptic will soon be found out.

The two parties have very different policies.

That was a million votes with a less eurosceptic more left-wing Conservative leader.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Hewitt)
That was a million votes with a less eurosceptic more left-wing Conservative leader.

Oh yes, everything will be different when the Conservatives get a "more eurosceptic right-wing" leader. Of course it will.

[Will Lucky]

(Original post by Tamora)
Oh yes, everything will be different when the Conservatives get a "more eurosceptic right-wing" leader. Of course it will.

Based on the current trend of the evolution of the Conservative party based on the 2010 intake sure why not? It has been steadily becoming more Eurosceptic, Cameron will likely be the last leader to take a more Pro-EU approach unless he is replaced within the next three years. Europhiles in the Conservatives are dying out, if the next leader tries to be Pro-EU they will be destroyed for it.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Will Lucky)
Based on the current trend of the evolution of the Conservative party based on the 2010 intake sure why not? It has been steadily becoming more Eurosceptic, Cameron will likely be the last leader to take a more Pro-EU approach unless he is replaced within the next three years. Europhiles in the Conservatives are dying out, if the next leader tries to be Pro-EU they will be destroyed for it.

It's always jam tomorrow with the Tories and I'm done with them. I just don't have the same faith in them that you do. The 2010 intake of Tories is imo so spineless that I cannot take them seriously as a force that will change the direction of the party. It remains committed to EU membership and all the talk of re-negotiation will be forever kicked into the long grass. For a party that let it be known that they have no desire to leave re-negotiation was always a non-starter anyway. This leader should have been destroyed for that alone.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong because if the Tories can't reconnect with their natural supporters we'll suffer another Labour term.

[Will Lucky]

(Original post by Tamora)
It's always jam tomorrow with the Tories and I'm done with them. I just don't have the same faith in them that you do. The 2010 intake of Tories is imo so spineless that I cannot take them seriously as a force that will change the direction of the party. It remains committed to EU membership and all the talk of re-negotiation will be forever kicked into the long grass. For a party that let it be known that they have no desire to leave re-negotiation was always a non-starter anyway. This leader should have been destroyed for that alone.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong because if the Tories can't reconnect with their natural supporters we'll suffer another Labour term.

Well as long as we are in coalition with the Liberals we can't do anything on Europe we can't even go for a re-negotiation. I pray I'm right and one does occur after the coalition is done with. Saying things to reconnect with supporters and then being forced to do other things because of the Coalition doesn't help at all.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Will Lucky)
Well as long as we are in coalition with the Liberals we can't do anything on Europe we can't even go for a re-negotiation. I pray I'm right and one does occur after the coalition is done with. Saying things to reconnect with supporters and then being forced to do other things because of the Coalition doesn't help at all.

The Tories are in coalition with the Lib Dems because they turned their backs on their own supporters. I think Cameron actually likes being in coalition; it gives him a convenient scapegoat. And allowing the coalition to continue means that those 'eurosceptic' MPs get to keep their jobs. They have the power to destroy Cameron. Their predecessors certainly did it to Thatcher, but then again I think she was genuinely eurosceptic, at least at the towards the end of her premiership. See how differently the supposedly eurosceptic Tories treat a europhile leader?

It's a question of faith I suppose.

[Hewitt]

At the end of the day though UKIP will never get into power. The Conservatives can and will again in the future. All UKIP does is make it harder.

However in some ways that is a good thing, in that the party will have to work harder and come up with better policies to get elected which is ultimately good for everyone.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Hewitt)
At the end of the day though UKIP will never get into power. The Conservatives can and will again in the future. All UKIP does is make it harder.

However in some ways that is a good thing, in that the party will have to work harder and come up with better policies to get elected which is ultimately good for everyone.

If UKIP makes getting elected harder for the Tories, that is a very good thing. The Tories can make things easier for themselves by coming up with better policies. It isn't rocket science, so why didn't they do it? The last Labour government was dire; it should have been child's play.

They will lose the next election if they don't up their game and they should understand that UKIP voters owe them absolutely nothing. The Tories have made it quite clear that they don't want what UKIP voters do. Though having said that, it has been reported that two thirds of Tory MPs want the relationship with the EU re-negotiated but they are "too scared" to reveal themselves. They need a leader who shares their conviction and who actually has the courage to see it through, and it needs to be a radical re-negotiation to the point where we have a trading relationship only. A propaganda only re-negotiation just will not do. It will get found out and the whole sorry saga will roll on.

[Hewitt]

(Original post by Tamora)
If UKIP makes getting elected harder for the Tories, that is a very good thing. The Tories can make things easier for themselves by coming up with better policies. It isn't rocket science, so why didn't they do it? The last Labour government was dire; it should have been child's play.

They will lose the next election if they don't up their game and they should understand that UKIP voters owe them absolutely nothing. The Tories have made it quite clear that they don't want what UKIP voters do. Though having said that, it has been reported that two thirds of Tory MPs want the relationship with the EU re-negotiated but they are "too scared" to reveal themselves. They need a leader who shares their conviction and who actually has the courage to see it through, and it needs to be a radical re-negotiation to the point where we have a trading relationship only. A propaganda only re-negotiation just will not do. It will get found out and the whole sorry saga will roll on.

So you would rather have a higher chance of another Labour government than a Conservative one?

[Tamora]

(Original post by Hewitt)
So you would rather have a higher chance of another Labour government than a Conservative one?

I find it really difficult to care if we must have a Labour or Conservative govt, so little do I think of both. I'm not going to vote for a party that I disagree with just because other people do. Damn tactical voting.

Maybe you should ask your question of the Conservative party rather than me. Would they rather have another Labour govt than a Conservative one?

[SFsucks]

(Original post by Hewitt)
At the end of the day though UKIP will never get into power.

I am saying this as a NON-supporter of UKIP, how do you know. Your not Darren Brown.

[Hewitt]

(Original post by SFsucks)
I am saying this as a NON-supporter of UKIP, how do you know. Your not Darren Brown.

I am not Derren Brown you are right. But the amount of stupidity it would require from the Conservative party to make UKIP more electable than them, there is virtually no chance UKIP will get into power.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Hewitt)
I am not Derren Brown you are right. But the amount of stupidity it would require from the Conservative party to make UKIP more electable than them, there is virtually no chance UKIP will get into power.

That sort of complacency will be the Tories downfall and they'll only have themselves to blame.

[Hewitt]

(Original post by Tamora)
That sort of complacency will be the Tories downfall and they'll only have themselves to blame.

That isn't complacency - that is confidence. Less cynical people would realise these are different things.

[Tamora]

(Original post by Hewitt)
That isn't complacency - that is confidence. Less cynical people would realise these are different things.

OK, it's complacent to be so confident of support when you offer so little to those who have supported you in the past. The Conservative party's members don't seem to be as confident as you as they appear to be leaving the party in large numbers. The numbers since Cameron became leader have dropped markedly. Why do you support the party?

I'm cynical because politicians have given me good reason to be so. It's very healthy in a voter/politician relationship. Watch their hands not their mouths.