[Sam Walters]

(Original post by Martyn*)
That is completely unfounded. There are entrepeneurs who are not very intelligent at all. They know how to run a business, maybe know the fundamentals of a trade, but that is all that they know. There are intelligent 9-5 workers as well, many of them have university degrees, some of them have expert knowledge.

"Hard work" is defined through two main components: manual and brain. Manual workers toil and we know that they are not always paid very well; their life is usually very harsh like the environment they work in. Brain workers on the other hand have the advantage of getting paid very well, they make important decisions which might affect the business though. But the brain worker's lot is not nearly as harsh as the manual worker's lot. Although hard work is subjective there is also an objective understanding, that being that manual work is less desireable compared to brain work, and for good reason.

Depends on how you define intelligence. Personally I think you should go out into the world and learn rather then read text books and the internet and accept it as gospel.

[MancStudent098]

(Original post by electriic_ink)
Norway doesn't have one but Iraq does.

Norway has a de-facto minimum wage of around £10 an hour. However it is enforced by the unions and not by the government.

[Martyn*]

(Original post by Sam Walters)
Depends on how you define intelligence. Personally I think you should go out into the world and learn rather then read text books and the internet and accept it as gospel.

By intelligence I mean having the know how. But in the context in which I am using it, having a much broader knowledge of causes and effects. I have gone out into the world, I probably have more experience about the world than you have.

[boba]

I'm not sure how your argument follows. its basically "getting rid of minimum wage would be bad" therefore "we should raise minimum wage" but the second part doesn't logically follow the first. surely "getting rid of minimum wage would be bad" would be followed by "therefore we should keep minimum wage"

[Astronomical]

(Original post by Martyn*)
That is completely unfounded. There are entrepeneurs who are not very intelligent at all. They know how to run a business, maybe know the fundamentals of a trade, but that is all that they know. There are intelligent 9-5 workers as well, many of them have university degrees, some of them have expert knowledge.

"Hard work" is defined through two main components: manual and brain. Manual workers toil and we know that they are not always paid very well; their life is usually very harsh like the environment they work in. Brain workers on the other hand have the advantage of getting paid very well, they make important decisions which might affect the business though. But the brain worker's lot is not nearly as harsh as the manual worker's lot. Although hard work is subjective there is also an objective understanding, that being that manual work is less desireable compared toe a brain work, and for good reason.

Clearly a successful entrepreneur is intelligent in the sense that they research the ventures they go into, are informed and up to date about their markets, competitors, etc. If they weren't, they'd most likely end up failing.

On the other hand the majority of 9-5'ers are happy enough to slave away and then go home and watch Eastenders and go to bed, with no interest in business or furthering themselves financially through it.

Manual labour anyone can do. Brain work, only a few can do (well). Therefore it is unsurprising that "brain work jobs" command much larger salaries than "manual work jobs" as you put it. These jobs require active thought, and ingenuity, rather than just following instructions and not having to think about anything. Manual labour may well be physically demanding, but it's certainly not hard work.

[Friar Tuck]

(Original post by TimmonaPortella)
Minimum wage causes unemployment by eliminating jobs that aren't worth £6 per hour.

I've heard this argument before, but seriously: what kind of jobs are worth less than £6 an hour? Because only ones I can think of are simple labour jobs like cleaning, waiting tables, newspapers etc. And all of these jobs are the ones a businesses literally can't do without, and just has to accept the higher costs.

[temp]

(Original post by Donald Duck)
The German economy is currently the strongest in Europe, even with all the euro trouble they've got.

Germany does not have minimum wage.

Not exactly true, according to wikipedia:

no statutory minimum wage, except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law

So the minimum wage is effectively set by unions, not exactly a Randian paradise.

[Fynch101]

(Original post by Astronomical)
You should get a job.

In any case, anyone can turn up and do a 9-5 job. It's not difficult to replace those people.

The phrase "hard work" is being abused here, too. Working hard starts well before getting an actual job; these rich businessmen and entrepreneurs are usually very intelligent men and women, whereas your average 9-5 worker isn't. That is no coincidence. The "hard work" is getting yourself into a position to get a top job, not the physical demand of the job itself.

Also, I agree with your friend about the fact that people would work for £1.80 or a sub-minimum wage; many people just like working, and don't like sitting at home on JSA.

I challenge this, at least ones in the public eye - Alan Sugar, Rupert Murdoch etc are not clever people at all. Alan Sugar appears to be your average GCSE dropout who has been fed on tabloid newspapers for 50 years.

[Fynch101]

(Original post by Donald Duck)
The German economy is currently the strongest in Europe, even with all the euro trouble they've got.

Germany does not have minimum wage.

Oh so those two facts must be endogenously linked? yeah right.

Anyway Germany does have dozens of minimum wage laws, they are just industry specific rather than national like in the UK.

[Astronomical]

(Original post by Fynch101)
I challenge this, at least ones in the public eye - Alan Sugar, Rupert Murdoch etc are not clever people at all. Alan Sugar appears to be your average GCSE dropout who has been fed on tabloid newspapers for 50 years.

(Original post by Astronomical)
Clearly a successful entrepreneur is intelligent in the sense that they research the ventures they go into, are informed and up to date about their markets, competitors, etc. If they weren't, they'd most likely end up failing.

On the other hand the majority of 9-5'ers are happy enough to slave away and then go home and watch Eastenders and go to bed, with no interest in business or furthering themselves financially through it.

Manual labour anyone can do. Brain work, only a few can do (well). Therefore it is unsurprising that "brain work jobs" command much larger salaries than "manual work jobs" as you put it. These jobs require active thought, and ingenuity, rather than just following instructions and not having to think about anything. Manual labour may well be physically demanding, but it's certainly not hard work.

See bold.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by xoxAngel_Kxox)
The thing is, there would be a lot of people who were perfectly willing to work for less than minimum wage. I have a feeling you'd get a lot more students in those kinds of jobs, maybe to support themselves through A Levels or their degree when they wouldn't be able to claim any other benefits. Obviously if the wage being offered is less than an individual would receive on benefits they're not all that likely to take the job, because they'd struggle more.

I don't think it would be good for the economy at all. It would be easier for younger people to get jobs, but you'd get more older people unemployed.

sorry,could you explain why with the bold? i seem to be having an off day

rather than wondering if people on benefits would like such a job, is it possible to be in a scenario where you are not eligible for benefits of any kind but still need the little money for say food etc? a different category of people

[Joinedup]

You can't live on 1.60 an hour unless you're being subsidised by the state, some form of benefit legal or fiddled. Why should the state subridise crappy employers.

I know minimum wage is a hot topic amongst the tsr A level economics crew but in the real world businesses aren't complaining about it, if you look at the cbi website ferinstance you'll see they're concerned with complicated regulations and banks who won't make business loans.

[Ham22]

(Original post by Astronomical)
Manual labour anyone can do. Brain work, only a few can do (well). Therefore it is unsurprising that "brain work jobs" command much larger salaries than "manual work jobs" as you put it. These jobs require active thought, and ingenuity, rather than just following instructions and not having to think about anything. Manual labour may well be physically demanding, but it's certainly not hard work.

Have you ever thought that being made not to think all day might be an extra toll on an individual?

I've had to cut my hours and quit menial jobs because the lack of stimulation was making me physically (headaches) and mentally (depressed) ill.

I honestly don't know how anyone who has at least an average i.q spends years of their life sat on a checkout for e.g, without going stir crazy.

[ono]

(Original post by electriic_ink)
Norway doesn't have one but Iraq does.

countries like norway and germany are an exception. they have high levels of growth and jobs in the economy which means that workers have scarcity power. this allows them to demand high wages so there is no need for a NMW.

however in the UK there is not a surplus of jobs meaning, while cutting the NMW will create more jobs, the average wage will be very low. this will cause living standards to lower and wages to fall which will have devastating effects on the UK economy. as living costs are rising this will mean households have far less disposable income.

also the effect will not be overnight. suddenly getting rid of the NMW will not instantly mean more jobs. there is a shortage of credit so it is unlikely businesses can instantly invest to create more jobs.

there is no point in comparing the UK to other countries when the circumstances are entirely different...

[Sam Walters]

(Original post by Martyn*)
By intelligence I mean having the know how. But in the context in which I am using it, having a much broader knowledge of causes and effects. I have gone out into the world, I probably have more experience about the world than you have.

You presume experience means you’re well learnt? Sensible idea, but not always mutual.

[KentaKobashi]

Well obviously it would suit him, it would suit anybody. However, the purpose of any economic system is to fulfil the needs of everyone and quite frankly, given the costs of living and maintaining a sufficient lifestyle through nutrition, clothing, warmth and basic utilities, the minimum wage of £6.08, let along £1.60 is just not enough, no matter how you phrase it.

I often wonder about people who justify the removal or lowering of the minimum wage and where their agendas lie. Economics is unlike any other science in that it is heavily politicised. IN physics, all that matters is the truth and governments will rarely, if ever, try to get involved in physics because not only does it not interest them and their personal interests, but it doesn't further their financial aims. As a result, in physics and most other sciences, we get the absolute truth.

However, economics is highly politicised. There is a truth in what economists do, and what the most efficient and best outcome is for society as a whole. It's not liberal to say that either, because the sheer purpose of economics is to construct systems beneficial to us as a species. Every species has an economic system, ours is just a lot more sophisticated. But unlike other species, humans have a wide array of different alignments and opinions, most of which deviate from the absolute truth that I am talking about, because it benefits them, as the original poster describes. It would be beneficial for employers to charge as low as is humanely possible, no-one doubts that. But that is not the PURPOSE of it. In actuality, charging a fair wage rate, whilst more of a hinderance to the firm, is actually more beneficial to society as whole and the welfare of people involved in it. That is the purpose of the economic system. To serve everyone, not one or a select, priviledged few.

I can say all of this with justification too, as there are $21 trillion worth of funds in offshore accounts, more than the US and Japanese economies combined. There is the ability to create some system whereby everyone benefits, however I feel, much like diamonds being withdrawn from supply to hike up the diamond price, money is being drawn out of the economy's circulation to squeeze the population at large and not have to deal with the responsibility that everyone has to have, which is to get the economy going again.

[original_username]

Erm they already do? They just call them apprenticeships.

[Jono404]

(Original post by Martyn*)
I was talking to a friend about raising the minimum wage whilst en-route to a Morrissey concert last night.

How quintessentially student-esque.

[cl_steele]

(Original post by Dalek1099)
Yes business is a very evil act and all business should be stopped and replaced with the Government paying people wages and all the profit given to the Government so that it can be shared out fairly and we should be careful rising the minimum wage though because it may mean that businesses can't afford as many jobs as before and thus people lose their jobs,the maximum wage needs to be implemented I feel.A lot of crafty businesses,have been replacing employees,with machines thus cutting jobs and increasing unemployment for more profit

Please say youre kidding with this mumbo jumbo?

[Podcaster]

Why not go all the way and use slaves OP?